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SotP v. Alpha 0.75.1 | My Feedback and Suggestions


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#41 Admiral Stukov

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 04:30 PM

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Well... Strange...  I suggest to incriese Valiant's MAC damage and build cost.



#42 Cole Protocol

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 05:59 PM

This isn't strange, this is balance. Valiant is a command ship, she has slightly worse arms than a Marathon because she has all the command equipment. If you want a command ship that doubles as a battleship, look at the Punic. The Valiant, really can far surpass a Marathon in even arms if you play your cards right. It can get a passive ability that follows it everywhere (which buffs the MAC past Marathon levels), and a huge durability boost. Looking at sole stats like this and the entire mod will seem broken, how those stats work with others is what matters.


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#43 Azo 'Salcam

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 08:39 PM

Hey guys a great friend of mine and I were fighting the ai in a 2 v 2 match, and we discovered some complications that need to be fixed. Badly.

 

  • The UNSC ai (it was UNSC vs UNSC) built the Infinity in eleven minutes from the start of the game give or take.
  • The ai will skip planets completely, like they don't exist. For example: If Reach was planet one, Onyx was Planet two, and Requiem was planet three, and they were in a straight line, the ai will start from Reach and skip onyx completely and land on Requiem. Bypassing the middle planet like it doesn't exist.
  •  The ai will focus 98% of time on building Military structures to build the titans, not even caring about economy or anything else. And they aren't set on Aggressive either.

Which means if you literally start the game as any faction, the ai will already be ahead of you, no matter how fast or slow you are.

 

I for example spammed smacs as a test to see if one could hold out against the ai onslaught. You can survive a little bit, but they will strike in gaps, and or throw their bodies at you like the soviet army in WW2.

 

Btw the ai were on normal and they doing all this. I believe the ai needs to be tweaked, if that is alright?


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#44 SiRD31M0S

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 09:04 PM

The UNSC ai (it was UNSC vs UNSC) built the Infinity in eleven minutes from the start of the game give or take.

The AI version of Infinity has a build time of almost 19 minutes. Unless something broke and the AI managed to select the player version, what you're saying is physically impossible even if it started building the exact moment the game began.


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#45 Aunt Gruntie

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 10:32 PM

Btw the ai were on normal and they doing all this. I believe the ai needs to be tweaked, if that is alright?

Sadly we cannot touch the AI, like at all. The only thing we can do is coerce it to actually function, and since the AI was not built around this mods fast paced fleet battles, but around slow paced slugfests, you will see the AI do absolutely stupid things. Likes sending its ships one at a time into a SMAC wall.

We can do is buff the AI's economy and various other stats beyond what human players receive, basically the AI gets to cheat so it can function at a competent level.

 

More importantly what map where you playing? We NEED to know this, as map design HEAVILY influences AI behavior. 

 

 

@Battlemage, SMACs have been intentionally balanced to do the exact opposite of what you're suggestion, that is the used to fire half as fast and dealt twice the damage they do now. The way they're balanced now is to help the SMACs to be me proficient at dealing with large amounts of frigate spam. However I do agree with your point that there can be too many SMACs in grav wells (about 50 or more in certain wells).

 

Also in regards to your dodge chance ideas, due in part to the way Sins handles dodge chance, if you gave those kinds of stats to ships like the Halberd and Paris, they'd be so OP you'd just need to build nothing but those ships.

 

   And again the Shiva isn't underpowered. See your thinking that the nuke should be quite powerful, and you'd be right. But here's the thing, the UNSC can build, with normal (x1.0) fleet sizes, 33(34?) capital ships. That's a total of 33 nukes. 33 nukes at about 6k damage apiece to the first target (not including splash damage), means the UNSC's alpha with nukes alone is 198,000 damage. For the record, the CAS has about 50k health (not including armor here for simplicities sake). That's a ton of damage, and that's not even including splash damage. If you include splash damage on a large fleet with 33 nukes, the amount of damage would be extremely high.

   You also have to keep in mind that each UNSC ship has a MAC, and that means on average each ship does about 2000 damage per shot. with a large fleet of around 100 ships or so, that's 200,000 damage on top of the nukes. That means the UNSC as an absurd enough alpha strike potential. This is a delicate balance we're trying to achieve, even a slight alteration could mean the difference between a super OP faction, or a useless one.

   The Shiva used to be more powerful, but it was OP as balls and made the UNSC unstoppable.

 

PROTIP, the Stalwart/CAR has an antifighter ability called "FlackBurst" and it insta kills any strike craft within range (AoE with a target cap). Try setting some of those ships near your ODPs and they will be extremely well protected against bombers. Just remember to set their engagement range to either hold position or local area.


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#46 Azo 'Salcam

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 11:59 PM

It was on medium,maps, some sort if cycle map. It has Onyx on it every time as well as the Sigma Octonus planets.

The ai focused on only military structures and thats ut. No economic strcutures of any sort. They simply went for military build up, and build the Infinity at 0:42:00. The second unsc ai built it at 0:47:00. I built mine at 1:57:00. And mine got destroyed by overwhelming force, and survived fir two minutes.

The aibliterally does nothing else but military focus, at least as unsc. Last time i fought covenant, they ceased building and were easy to beat; thatvwas until i had my boot on their neck and they tried fkr one failed last hoorah on Contact Harvest.

The ai needs tweaks on bith factions' ai.
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#47 SiRD31M0S

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 12:54 AM

The AI reacts strangely to some of the custom maps. Your best bet for a consistent foe would probably just be a random map.

 

 

The ai focused on only military structures and thats ut. No economic strcutures of any sort. They simply went for military build up, and build the Infinity at 0:42:00. The second unsc ai built it at 0:47:00. I built mine at 1:57:00. And mine got destroyed by overwhelming force, and survived fir two minutes.

This is pretty much just how the AI is most of the time, now that it gets its super space monies. You really just have to start playing more aggressively. I honestly never figured out what broke in the system that required this kind of fix, but I've kinda just become trusting that the mod folks know what they're talking about.

 

Also, don't let Infinity's status as the strongest buildable ship fool you. It WILL go down if you aren't careful.


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#48 Azo 'Salcam

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 01:44 AM

So a different map? Sounds like a,plan.

Oh I killed the Infinity ONCE, but they built another one like they didn't care xD

I will try to be more aggressive and see the outcome. Thank you.
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#49 Battlemage1

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 09:53 AM


@Battlemage, SMACs have been intentionally balanced to do the exact opposite of what you're suggestion, that is the used to fire half as fast and dealt twice the damage they do now. The way they're balanced now is to help the SMACs to be me proficient at dealing with large amounts of frigate spam. However I do agree with your point that there can be too many SMACs in grav wells (about 50 or more in certain wells).

 

In Lore they can't deal with such amount of ships, but they will ruin enemy's formations from long distances, if not crippled or destroyed. This game is about naval engagements and very far from 'reality', because it's simply impossible to make it so. So, in order to it make a little bit closer to original desgin and more interesting as part of gameplay, you may try to improve ODPs basic range, damage, add AA cannons and buff HPs, but decrease fire rate slightly and number (in some cases).

 

Then, players won't not hide their fleets far behind or inside ODPs walls, but try to defend their ODPs clusters above planets and push enemy back untill it's too late. With Covenant (for example) bombers spam, you have to send some number of Stalwarts to platforms anyway, but some cap slots and resources will be free for another purposes. 

 

Also in regards to your dodge chance ideas, due in part to the way Sins handles dodge chance, if you gave those kinds of stats to ships like the Halberd and Paris, they'd be so OP you'd just need to build nothing but those ships.

Well, yes... Maybe 30 is too cool for Halo aesthetic, but 10-15 is OK. I have some... minor skills in modding in Sins, and so I know about dodge enough to say... Please, leave this bullshit for another person. With such instense fire 10-15% won't save any vessel from inevitable... Also, your current Halberd and Paris won't OP in any case, but them will become useful. Now I have no need in building them. Do you really believe that dead class is better?

 

 

I suggested to make an ability for Halberd. 'Evasive manuevers' will apply dodge and speed buffs in exchange for major portion of fire rate, damage and accuracy. 'Tactical manuevering' will raise incoming damage, decrease speed, but improve damage and fire rate slightly.

 

 

You have to shield yourself to fight Covenant, and Halcyon spam will do better than tactical manuevering on Halberds anyway. Even if those destroyers success, you have to wait until reinforcements will arrive, while Halcyons, Orions, Punics and Autumns can go further: kill, crush, maim. 

 

I'm not talking about making UNSC OP once again, but about bringing back many retired (retarded?) ships' classes into action. It's not named classes so cool, but all others are too bad.

 

 

   And again the Shiva isn't underpowered. See your thinking that the nuke should be quite powerful, and you'd be right. But here's the thing, the UNSC can build, with normal (x1.0) fleet sizes, 33(34?) capital ships. That's a total of 33 nukes. 33 nukes at about 6k damage apiece to the first target (not including splash damage), means the UNSC's alpha with nukes alone is 198,000 damage. For the record, the CAS has about 50k health (not including armor here for simplicities sake). That's a ton of damage, and that's not even including splash damage. If you include splash damage on a large fleet with 33 nukes, the amount of damage would be extremely high.

   You also have to keep in mind that each UNSC ship has a MAC, and that means on average each ship does about 2000 damage per shot. with a large fleet of around 100 ships or so, that's 200,000 damage on top of the nukes. That means the UNSC as an absurd enough alpha strike potential. This is a delicate balance we're trying to achieve, even a slight alteration could mean the difference between a super OP faction, or a useless one.

   The Shiva used to be more powerful, but it was OP as balls and made the UNSC unstoppable.

 

Shiva is underpowered due to low damage to even non-capitals, too short EMP effect, bad damage to shields and small AoE. Fear is meaningless, because UNSC capitals number can't match Covenant combat effectivness without tactics known as HALCYON SPAM!!1 on appropriate level. It's easier to do so, than invent something else.

 

Now Shiva works only as secondary attack for paperweight capitals. Yes, they will take one shot, but what's next? Majority of UNSC capital ships are unable to withstand heavy punishment, while Punics can't do anything without strong damage dealers behind their backs.

 

If you fight player in multiplayer, so he/she won't allow you to blow an entire fleet with nukes anyway. Have you ever heard about "Disperse and engage"? Extremely effective against UNSC. So, perhaps you shouldn't think so much about Covenant AI/Players and get even a half of Naval-issue grenade back?

 

Honestly, Shiva is like torpedo from Star Trek now. It's not like thermonuclear charge, because of it's small AoE, low damage to even small vessels and poor EMP effect. Also, in Lore nukes are best way to drain enemy shields, while here you can forget about 'draining' something, but frigate.

 

Yes, they have MAC. UNSC MAC is their only way to fight Covenant somehow. Furthermore, only few classes have enough MAC firepower to be trully useful. Why then you forgot about covies plasma torpedoes and energy projectors? About their speed and HP amounts? 

 

Do you really believe that MAC is soo cool? Humans use MACs only bacuse of their technological backwardness, because missiles and CIWS can't do anything alone. 

 

 

PROTIP, the Stalwart/CAR has an antifighter ability called "FlackBurst" and it insta kills any strike craft within range (AoE with a target cap). Try setting some of those ships near your ODPs and they will be extremely well protected against bombers. Just remember to set their engagement range to either hold position or local area.

 

 

 

Not sure what do you mean as "PROTIP". A tip, perhaps.
 
So, this is the main reason to add at least weak AA guns to ODPs. When you fight Covenant, there can be no extra ships to leave them somewhere... And build 8-10 frigates and carriers is too cool to ensure fortress worlds defenses, but/because we have to hold 1:3.
On the other hand, large MAC groups will kill everybody anyway, so even AA protection now is irrelevant. 
 
Now Stalwarts faith are to be decomissioned, when offensive ops will change defensive. These ships might be used in most brutal assaults with at least some dodge chance and normal MAC damage. They won't OP with their hull points anyway. They won't replace Charons and Parises because these classes have their advantages too.
 
 
Yes, Devs definitely found a balance now, but... this is an easy way. Such easy, so you already see ironical changes in tide of war from early to late game. You already see many dead classes and MAC walls. 
Idea of Alpha damage is great, but now all in the same key, if enemy wouldn't be so merciful and grant you a chance to try something else. If you have a real fight, so there is only one way to ensure your victory, and it's typed red above this remark.

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#50 Battlemage1

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 10:23 AM

This isn't strange, this is balance. Valiant is a command ship, she has slightly worse arms than a Marathon because she has all the command equipment. If you want a command ship that doubles as a battleship, look at the Punic. The Valiant, really can far surpass a Marathon in even arms if you play your cards right. It can get a passive ability that follows it everywhere (which buffs the MAC past Marathon levels), and a huge durability boost. Looking at sole stats like this and the entire mod will seem broken, how those stats work with others is what matters.

Excuse me, both ships are classified as "super-heavy". Why you can't simply increase Valiant's price to 'Don't look', but buff it's basic hull points and MAC damage? Like in case with Punic. It's a command ship. Punic is defensive support, while Valiant is offensive.

 

If you  afraid of spam, so... Why do you think that now there is no spam of 1-2 best classes? I named them above, and Punic is one of them (due to it's hullpoints and buffs). Some players will do it anyway, but why the others have to live with and not cheap to build-new-and-upgrade super-heavy cruiser? Buff dealers must live for living. In UNSC case, they can live only with Covenant eliminated. Every drop of damage is important, every shot is crucial.

 

If you need expendable and fast vessel for raid - choose Marathon, if you need durable and damage-dealing Fleet Command vessel for major engagements - choose Valiant. This is the case, when you succesfully gave your ships right abilities, but regrettably not stats.

 

 

What are these double standards are?  I believe, in memory of Taco Pimp this class deserves much better faith, than sunk (you know that animation) in space. I ready to pay more in order to have not buff giver, but also formidable foe from it's 1st level. Super-heavy cruiser can't be cheap and expendable anyway. 


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#51 Battlemage1

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 10:58 AM

And let me say few words about perfection.

 

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.


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#52 Bornstellaris

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:09 PM

And let me say few words about perfection.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.


Before the balance team come and tell you the details of everything. I'd just like to say that all of this feedback from you, that's perfection in your eyes. This is not a bad thing, everyone has a perfect idea of what they'd like something to be. But this team has tested this build, sharpened it to the point where we've released it to the public, for almost a year now. Possibly longer. We're all lore freaks here, everyone on the team constantly pokes at the finer aspects of lore. What can be achieved without sacrificing gameplay. That balance has been struck, evidenced by release. No release is without problems, as I'm sure the team is hard at work correcting them. These changes you're suggesting, they completely change the delicate work that has been done to even get to this release. Everything has a use and a purpose, you just have to find it. Please, continue to provide feedback and opinions on what should be changed. Just remember, your perfection won't always match up with our perfection.
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#53 Lavo

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:44 PM

My responses are in bold; I have yet to look at any post newer than these ones.

2) Covenant Attacker AI (Hard or harder, don't remember) on Elysia map have some problems with planets. It's not going to capture worlds untill me forces led them there or lured someway. AI is very passive and only repelling my attacks on their insertion crafts and small task forces, sometimes with larger further incursions.

 

AI is a known issue unfortunately. SotP's combat style does not work well in Sins, so the AI is a continual WIP.

 

3) Sometimes UNSC capitals stucks before go to warp and stay there, when all their fleet have already departed. You have to order them course change and jump again in order ot solve the problem.

 

Which maps is this happening on? Is it only certain custom maps or all maps including randoms? If the former, it's likely a map issue. If the latter, any save games would be most appreciated.

 

4) With Punic-class in battlegroup, ships sometimes choose jump point in gravity well, but much further from... Let's call it normal jump point. They have to make longer way to point inside gravity well to jump, than get out of it directly. 

 

This might be a bug with the Punic's command ability, will look into.

 

5) Covenant scouts just stay and stare on cloaked HORNETS. They don't even trying to go closer and disable them.

 

Might be a case of the scout being derp; will look into, thanks!

 

6) Today, pack of HORNETS was alerted by Covenant vessel. Just as Sins mechanics demands, they've begun pursuit, but soon gave up and got back to initial position. 

 

Typical Sins behavior, cannot be fixed sadly.

 

8) Cradle Depot has some abilities or perks, but there are no info and pictures about them. Only effects.

 

Aye, it does not actually do anything. It only serves to spawn the real Cradle.

 

9) With found 'Ancient Energy Core' artifact Sahara has stable working cloak on eternal 41 of 42 antimatter points. Even after cloaked slipspace antimatter restore while cloaking field is active.

 

Totally forgot about the antimatter artifact. Good find, thanks!

 

10) On level 10, Sahara has 4 unspent experience points. What's about further Shiva improvements? 

 

No matter what the Sahara will always have unspent ability points; this is the cost of having 3 abilities that do not level up.

 

11) If you have ships in 'cease fire' mod being infected by flood, so they won't attack you anyway. If they have local area, so you have to go close enough to make them shoot at you.

 

This is taking advantage of hardcoded Sins behavior; nothing we can do sadly.


1) Increase ODPs main gun firepower and range, but decrease their fire rate and available number for all types of planets, except asteroids. Increase their HPs and/or armor and add weak-medium point defence cannons to fight incoming aircraft. Perhaps, increase their overall price in titanium and credits. Huge MACs walls looks really impressive, but unrealistic and something  prompts me that UNSC have not so many free space, resources and personell on planets to sustain all of them. Also, despite their lack of strenght... now it's kinda unfair to Covenant. Helixes AA also would be useful only against small number of fighters and bombers due to their range and... damage. Now there is nothing more effective (Price-Quality) to counter aircraft than your own aircraft.  

 

Decreasing their fire rate and increasing their range is not an option, due to balance. I also must note that the UNSC's Orion and the Covenant's DOS both outrange the SMAC; once a hole is made in the SMAC wall, a pair of either ship can start cleaning up and creating a route to the planet or somewhere else. The hangar defense could likely use a revisit to make it a proper fighter counter.

 

I can agree that the ODP numbers are a bit much. Perhaps they could use an individual buff to damage and/or weapon cooldown, but be hit with a tactical slot cost increase, resource cost increase, and/or activation time increase to compensate.

 

According to this article, ODPs have some defensive weapon. But now they more resembles Tau from Warhammer. Those guys can't do anything in melee too. But... actually here we have large space stations with idiotically expensive weapon and large number of crewmen. Perhaps, there were some Helixes on board yet?  

http://halo.wikia.co...efense_Platform

 

If you read that article it notes that there is no evidence to support the presence of point defense weaponry. From the article: "No sources indicate the presence of additional weapons, such as point defense cannons commonly mounted on UNSC warships"

 

2) Perhaps, one day you could add new fire animation for bombers. Maybe HAVOK missile (or analog, you better know) missiles for the UNSC bombers and large plasma bursts (or what they use) for the Covenant. Also, if UNSC bombers would be more serious threat so there will be reason to buy some.

 

The UNSC Longsword is not a huge threat to Covenant warships, but is a massive one to UNSC ships. This is by design.

 

3) Make different shield capacity for all UNSC capitals, basing on reactor outputs. More likely that Autumns have more durable shields than Marathons. Shields are not standard equipment (like standard MAC) and, most likely unique for every class energy capabilites. 

 

This cannot be done due to how the refit is set up. UNSC capitals have different shield regen rates however.

 

4) Increase damage to Valiant dual MACs. It's strange that super-heavy cruiser, further deisgn of Marathon (If I'm not mistaken) has worse MACs than original class. Not sure if 'reactor output' is reasonable here, due to MACs models on ships. If this very model require such amount of power, so unlikely engineers will install it without additional generator or something like that.

 

The Valiant is a defensive warship whose main purpose is it's powerful command ability. Further, with it's durability upgrades maxed out at level 6, it has health comparable to the Punic, while having the same supply cost as a Marathon. It is our interpretation that the "superheavy" designation primarily refers to the durability and armor of the ship, rather than it's armament.

 

5) Same thing about frigates... Charon, Paris and likely Stalwart have light MACs (unknown, if they share same model, but most likely. Why UNSC must develop 3 different light MAC types for 3 frigates?), which must be powered equally and deal equal damage. Reactor output is not explanation due to additional power store and support generators. All ships (in Halo, Star Trek, Warhammer) must have some additional power to transfer to ship's systems, but some classes have many energy to transfer, while some have poor store for emergency cases. I believe that Charon advanced life-support system is not so energy expending to change basic MAC parametrs. Alike thing with Stalwart.

 

Yes, they have different battle roles and armament, but as I understand, differs only armor, some equipment and secondary weaponry. 

 

The MAC barrels themselves have different lengths, which mean more charging coils are present. Even if they have the same MAC type, having a different barrel length directly results in superior MAC performance. It also is different for balance.

 

6) Add different dodge buffs to all small ships: corvettes, frigates. They move faster, have better turn rate and smaller size. They were build with additional manueverability in exchange for heavier armor and devastating weaponry.

Directed energy weapon unlikely have 100% accuracy in this case... In balance... this measure will increase bad survival rate of frigates and corvettes and make their lives a little bit longer. Interesting feature to the mod.

 

Chance to dodge is not actually a chance to dodge in Sins; all weapons will always have 100% accuracy. This buff modifier is purely a damage reduction of sorts and sadly does not do what you think it does. It would be cool if we could implement something like this, but unfortunately it is not possible.

 

9) Make Flood more interesting and deadly. Their tentacles are not so long to catch me now.  In 0.56.1 it was more... uncomfortable and disturbing. 

 

Certain concepts applied to the Flood did not work out as well as intended. We are planning to do a complete overhaul to them.

 

 

Also, this have players to THINK before BUILD. Now good friend of mine just BUILD the WALL and NOTHING can DEMOLISH IT. He is smart enough to have many fighters.
 

Covenant fighters are much better than UNSC ones, to start. Further, the Orion and DOS both out range the SMAC; I must ask if utilizing one of those in cohesion with fighters was attempted.

 

Also, when I said about faction balance. This friend use halcyons and orions to break Covenant in any pose he wants. Perhaps, he's more crazy evil Russian than I.

I'm building many types of ships and micro control them and what? When I tactically fail, he says that my tactics were invalid, sends 100 Halcyons, Autumns, Orions, Valiants (1 for Buff) and Putins and STORMS everyone everywhere. Sometimes he getting back with cup of tea and asks me 'It's OK there? I was absent".

No, I don't mean that these classes are OP, but they're work.

 

This fleet sounds a lot like an end game fleet. It is very difficult to deal with this as the Covenant, however a couple of DOS mixed in with a strong CAS/OSS fleet and a bunch of CPV/CCS/RCS should be able to beat off that sort of fleet, at least on paper. I would be interested in the hard numbers used by both sides, as you may very well be onto something here.


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#54 SiRD31M0S

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:48 PM

In Lore

Sometimes, your oh-so-precious lore has to be sacrificed for reasonable and balanced gameplay. Not everything will be 100% accurate.

Well, yes... Maybe 30 is too cool for Halo aesthetic, but 10-15 is OK. I have some... minor skills in modding in Sins, and so I know about dodge enough to say... Please, leave this bullshit for another person. With such instense fire 10-15% won't save any vessel from inevitable... Also, your current Halberd and Paris won't OP in any case, but them will become useful. Now I have no need in building them. Do you really believe that dead class is better?

They're only a "dead class" because you refuse to learn how to use them.

I suggested to make an ability for Halberd. 'Evasive manuevers' will apply dodge and speed buffs in exchange for major portion of fire rate, damage and accuracy. 'Tactical manuevering' will raise incoming damage, decrease speed, but improve damage and fire rate slightly.

Unless your cheap, mass-produced destroyers are so important to you that you MUST evacuate them from a losing fight, "Evasive Maneuvers" is just a pointless way of removing the fast-paced combat from the early-mid game in favor of pointless min-maxing. If "Tactical Maneuvering" causes virtually any increase in damage taken, it's just an easy way to get your fleet wiped out. End of story.

I'm not talking about making UNSC OP once again

Yes you are. That is the exact consequence of almost all your proposed changes.

Shiva is underpowered due to low damage to even non-capitals, too short EMP effect, bad damage to shields and small AoE. Fear is meaningless, because UNSC capitals number can't match Covenant combat effectivness without tactics known as HALCYON SPAM!!1 on appropriate level. It's easier to do so, than invent something else.

Even after he demonstrates the enormous firepower in a fleet's worth of Shivas, you're still pretending you're right. You are deliberately, willfully deluding yourself. And yes, you are correct. It IS easier to spam Halcyons than think for five seconds and try to understand the game. Well done.

Now Shiva works only as secondary attack for paperweight capitals.

Now I KNOW you don't understand anything about the mod. Twenty capitals of varying classes, with the shield upgrade--TWENTY SHIPS--makes an ENORMOUS difference in the effectiveness of a fleet. Go try it. Make a fleet without any capital ships whatsoever, throw it against the late-game AI's fleet of doom. Then do it with just twenty capital ships. That's not even the maximum number of capitals you can field, and it's STILL the powerhouse of your entire fleet.

If you fight player in multiplayer, so he/she won't allow you to blow an entire fleet with nukes anyway. Have you ever heard about "Disperse and engage"?

Where one half of the fleet takes an entire armada's worth of Shivas and MAC rounds, gets obliterated, and leaves the second half of the fleet utterly helpless? Yes, I have heard of that, and it's fucking stupid.

It's not like thermonuclear charge, because of it's small AoE

Someone isn't paying attention to his oh-so-precious lore! Shit, this isn't even lore, this is straight up physics. A lot of a nuke's power comes from the location it's detonated, the way it "directs" the dispersing energy. Believe it or not, nothing's doing that in the vacuum of space.

low damage to even small vessels and poor EMP effect.

CRS gets utterly obliterated by a Shiva, and all other non-capitals have their shields either completely blown away, or very nearly so. The only reason you think the EMP doesn't last long enough, is because all you build is fucking Halcyons.

Also, in Lore nukes are best way to drain enemy shields, while here you can forget about 'draining' something, but frigate.

Turns out, they're really good in the mod, too. Go figure.

Yes, they have MAC. UNSC MAC is their only way to fight Covenant somehow. Furthermore, only few classes have enough MAC firepower to be trully useful. Why then you forgot about covies plasma torpedoes and energy projectors? About their speed and HP amounts?



Do you really believe that MAC is soo cool? Humans use MACs only bacuse of their technological backwardness, because missiles and CIWS can't do anything alone.

B-BUT THE LORE SAID THEY'RE COOL!

So, this is the main reason to add at least weak AA guns to ODPs. When you fight Covenant, there can be no extra ships to leave them somewhere... And build 8-10 frigates and carriers is too cool to ensure fortress worlds defenses, but/because we have to hold 1:3.

If you have to hold two worlds as your front line you'll be using... what? Around 100 fleet supply, for a reasonable amount of Stalwarts to defend ODP's? By god, what will you do without those extra five ships you could have made with it!

They won't replace Charons and Parises because these classes have their advantages too.

They do? But you said everything but Halcyons are useless. Please reconcile your opinions before making walls of text.

Idea of Alpha damage is great, but now all in the same key, if enemy wouldn't be so merciful and grant you a chance to try something else. If you have a real fight, so there is only one way to ensure your victory, and it's typed red above this remark.

Denying your oh-so-precious lore once again, I see! You are absolutely not correct, not from a lore standpoint, and not from a gameplay standpoint. Keep trying though. You'll definitely be right the fifth time, because that's how logic works.

Excuse me, both ships are classified as "super-heavy".

And it's both an excellent damage dealer, as well as a fleet buffer. What's your point?

If you afraid of spam, so... Why do you think that now there is no spam of 1-2 best classes?

Because only conceited numbskulls who pretend to know more about the mod than the people who made it, are willing to delude themselves into believing there are only two worthwhile ship classes.

Some players will do it anyway

And they'll get blown the fuck away by any competent player utilizing their fleet to its fullest potential, or even by the AI in most circumstances.

Buff dealers must live for living.

And if you give it shields, it most likely will.

This is the case, when you succesfully gave your ships right abilities, but regrettably not stats.

"This ship isn't the absolute pinnacle of both damage-dealing and fleet buffing, so it's terrible and the mod makers should regret its existence. Attempting to build a diverse fleet with many ships of many roles to ascertain the truth of my claims has not crossed my mind."

What are these double standards are?

There aren't any.

I ready to pay more in order to have not buff giver

Then build more of your precious Halcyons. They're the best, right? Why should you need anything else?

And let me say few words about perfection.



Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Meaningless platitudes have no place in nuanced discussion.

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#55 SiRD31M0S

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:58 PM

Let's bury the notion that Shivas are underpowered.

"Missile away."
A plume of exhaust divided the darkness of space.
"Five seconds to meltdown," the ops officer said. "Four, three, two--"
"Shunt drive plasma to space," the Captain ordered. "Cut power to all systems."
The Covenant ship was silhouetted for a brief second by pure white--then the view screen snapped off. The bridge lights went dead.
John could see everything, though. The bridge officers, Dr. Halsey as she clutched onto the railing, and Captain Wallace as he stood and saluted the pilots he had just sent to die.
The hull of the Commonwealth rumbled and pinged as the shock wave enveloped them. It grew louder, a subsonic roar that shook John to his bones.
The noise seemed to go on forever in the darkness. It faded... then it was completely silent.
"Power us back up," the Captain said. "Slowly. Give me ten percent from the reactors if we can manage."
The bridge lights came on, dimly, but they worked.
"Report," the Captain ordered.
"All sensors offline," the op officer said. "Resetting backup computer. Hang on. Scanning now. Lots of debris. It's hot back there. All Longsword fighters vaporized." He looked up, the color drained from his face. "Covenant ship... intact, sir."

This is the lore you so desperately cling to. A Shiva failed to cause any noticeable damage to one of the smallest Covenant ships. This means the Shiva in-game is actually OVERPOWERED compared to lore. You have no excuse now.
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You think I might be crazy, but I gotta be ALL IN

 

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#56 SternuS

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 04:14 AM

There are already enough people in here that know a lot more than I do about balance, so I won't jump in here too, but let me make a brief review of this thread and your feedback (referring to OP).

 

First of all, thanks for the feedback.

Secondly, what I've learned from your posts about your point of view is that:

1) you've mostly, if not only, played as UNSC. To truly understand the balance of the mod, you should spend more time playing Covenant. I'm suggesting this because

2) most of your suggestions would make the UNSC absolutely overpowered; most, as some of your suggestions and feedback provided useful information, as noted by some of the Mods who replied, so do not inted this as mockery. You probably haven't understood the importance of Shivas - to buff them? That is outright madness, no one would play as Covenant ever again.

3) You say that this mod would need more diversity, and yet you suggest things like equalizing all the MAC damages on UNSC frigates, you suggest buffing basically all the ships because they aren't enough over powered like the Halcyon (which is an extremely useful ship, a tank that can be very dangerous if used properly), you suggest making ODP more powerful than they are now by giving them even AA guns and more range - do you realize these changes would make the mod the exact opposite from diversified? They would make the UNSC too powerful. They would destroy the balance of the mod - which is far from perfect, but as you say, perfection isn't achieved easily.

4) You complain that the UNSC is weak early game - again, have you played Covenant? Have you played it enough to know that the UNSC must be weak early game, or it would be, yet again, too powerful? The UNSC economy outranges by some AUs the Covenant economy even from mid game. This doesn't mean however that Covenant are doomed in late game - they just require more strategy, which is one of the perks of the Covenant, something that diversifies our mod.

 

Seriously, by these posts, it seems you haven't played Covenant properly or at all - UNSC is great, but keep in mind there are two factions in this mod, and there will be more.


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#57 베이클라이트

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 06:44 AM

god these walls of text. Too much too read.


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#58 Azo 'Salcam

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 07:38 PM

Is there a way to make the Savannah ju-u-ust a little more durable? Maybe about as durable as a Paris? I sent one in as a scout and it never came back because Banshees and Seraphs killed and ate its eyes for Ju Ju Bees.


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#59 PLPM

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 10:27 PM

Ok...

 

I´ll explain the balance I´ve encountered.

 

In the last version of Sins, I could have 4 fleets of Shiva-Doom, all of them conquering at the same time, Only the Covenant titan gave me issues and got me serious. I had some Orions to remove some shields and GG with any ship that approached. (this with AI and its spam)

 

Now?

 

Man, I got my lazy a** raped!

 

The UNSC took a hit in DPS but got a Buff in economy... I had to change my tactics and fleet composition.

 

I started to REALLY rely on Orions and mixing things up, actually, I had more Orions than Marathons in my fleets. (fleet composition of; 1 punic, 1 valiant, 1 phoenix 2 marathons 4 orions), that could deal with most ships (and havens) but the battleship and the OASs.

 

ALSO!

 

DAT NERF to the Anchor stations, MAN, did I get salty! lol! (I usually relied on Anchors for defenses and lock down with 70000+ hp of death and shivas) this actually made me use ACTUAL defenses, good job guys! 

 

I´m loving it...

 

Funnily enough, I´d use more frigates. If they didn´t always get killed first.

 

PD: I also encountered some issues when fighting the covenant, and their Hangar defenses: They had the nasty tendency to group them together (at one time having 25 of them as tightly clustered as possible in a single system) and it was REALLY nasty dealing with them... but not because of the fighters themselves, or the haven starbase... but because of the buff they have to shielded allies (3%)... ok, not much? apply that 25 times across the group and that they´re as shielded as a CSS. You ain´t making ***** with *puny* fleets.

 

So I got the infinity and used it... And had to reload the game... But I wasn´t going to give up ofc! SO, I brought the infinity... WITH the WHOLE FLEET. Dat 2000 fleet supply wasn´t wasted.


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#60 Fleet Admiral agigabyte

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 10:36 PM

Frigs go good with Halcyons. Really, everything goes good with Halcyons. Put a group of Halcyons up from then have the rest of you fleet behind them. Unless there's a player micromanaging the enemy fleet, this will vastly increase your survivability.


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