36 replies to this topic

[Moustachio86]

Aside from the Prophets giving a big fat no and inciting a racial genocide. What do you think of the idea of Humanity as a full member of the Covenant. This isn't entirely hypothetical, many Elites wanted to offer us a place before the war, but politics and religion got in the way.

I figure once you get past the fact it sounds awesome on the face of it; I'm not sure 26th Century Humanity would have fitted in. Assuming it's secular, we would never have gone along with The Great Journey and our habit of civil wars probably would mean we may be cut loose eventually.

That said, if it did 'work out', what about status? The Covenant has Engineers which would be greater than ours, I suspect our main role would be scientific. In terms of combat we wouldn't match the Brutes or Elites but I think they would respect our technology and use of it. I think in terms of hierarchy we probably would jostle a lot with the Brutes but not quite reach the Elites.

Thoughts?

[sloosecannon]

I think humans would also find a good role as tactical advisors, similar to the Elites. The unconventional thinking displayed using UNSCDEF ships, expanded to the size of Covenant fleets would make quite the impressive fighting force.

[SternuS]

Aside from the Prophets giving a big fat no and inciting a racial genocide. What do you think of the idea of Humanity as a full member of the Covenant. This isn't entirely hypothetical, many Elites wanted to offer us a place before the war, but politics and religion got in the way.
I figure once you get past the fact it sounds awesome on the face of it; I'm not sure 26th Century Humanity would have fitted in. Assuming it's secular, we would never have gone along with The Great Journey and our habit of civil wars probably would mean we may be cut loose eventually.
That said, if it did 'work out', what about status? The Covenant has Engineers which would be greater than ours, I suspect our main role would be scientific. In terms of combat we wouldn't match the Brutes or Elites but I think they would respect our technology and use of it. I think in terms of hierarchy we probably would jostle a lot with the Brutes but not quite reach the Elites.
Thoughts?

 

This is interesting, I've never thought about it. Well, talking about the Covenant b.S. (before Schism), we wouldn't really fit into it. Military? Elites and Brutes. Engineers? Not even par. Administration? In a Council of Elites and San 'Shyuum, the voting would've surely been 2:1 most time.

Thus, we go into the a.S. (after Schism). With Brutes, Engineers, and San 'Shyuum out of the game, our role would be much much greater. Unggoys and Mgalekgolos would be the plebs, while a High Council of Sangheili and Humans would work. I just realized I'm taking as instance Halo 2, but the Kilo 5 books clearly describes Sangheili as alone.

 

Also, the Covenant... UNSC sounds better.

[Emberblaque]

Yeah, seems to me the humans and Sangheili should be able to divide things up as they please and get control of the interstellar diplomatic process, sort of the way the U.S., U.K., France, China and U.S.S.R. did after WWII. Basically I think humans and Sangheili should be the fucking Security Council.

 

As for joining before the beginning of the war? Without a war, there isn't as much pressure to improve existing technologies. The UNSC came up with a lot of creative technological solutions to combat the threat. I imagine we wouldn't command as much respect, especially with no Sangheili having seen us in combat.

 

And then if you imagine a scenario in which the UNSC joins at the end of the war, there's probably a respect factor, but we're also less technologically advanced, physically weaker, and the newest member of the hegemony, with common sense and a backpack full of humanitarian values that would undermine the progress of the Covenant.

 

And a lot of civilians would probably be like WTF. That's something that doesn't seem to have been discussed at all. Who says it's even possible for the UNSC, or its civilian population, to agree to join an extraterrestrial religious hegemony, in which we are subservient to other species? I see human pride getting in the way of that. And if we do become a member, does the UNSC still exist? Or would the Covenant command us to disintegrate our institutions, and replace them with their own? Would the UNSC agree to that on behalf of humanity?

 

And the most important question always is, would ONI let that shit happen?

[CanadaMan7]

And a lot of civilians would probably be like WTF. That's something that doesn't seem to have been discussed at all. Who says it's even possible for the UNSC, or its civilian population, to agree to join an extraterrestrial religious hegemony, in which we are subservient to other species? I see human pride getting in the way of that. And if we do become a member, does the UNSC still exist? Or would the Covenant command us to disintegrate our institutions, and replace them with their own? Would the UNSC agree to that on behalf of humanity?

I see it going down because an offshoot of people would rather be alive than be loyal to the human race. If the Covenant gave the outer colonies a choice of extinction or joining them, it's not too hard of a choice. The entirety of the UNSC joining just seems unlikely.

[Zero]

I don't see it working because the Covenant is composed of the Elites and Prophets caste that govern the more simpler minded Grunts and Hunters. Jackals were pretty much in more than one case just hired privateers as explained in Contact Harvest. The Covenant is also governed by one religion and the idea of the great journey, humans have many different religions and often fight about them so I doubt they would just drop Jesus for the idea of self genocide.

 

To be fair though, I think a UNSC-Sangheili alliance would be pretty cool and just let the hunters and grunts do their thing since the Jackals are already doing their thing (selling arms, a CCS, being pirates etc.)

[KhevaKins]

I don't think humans would of joined anyway. The Covenant races have to believe in the Journey, even if it is just a proxy belief (see. Jackals). The hunters are special in that they don't have to, but do you really want to tell a hunter what to do? Humans would of had to renounce every other faith to join and I doubt that would go down well. We wouldn't be higher enough or strong enough (in the covenant's eyes) to be exempt from the rules and many a human war has started because of faith.
Also the lower species (Jackals downwards) were treated pretty bad, not being allowed last names, etc. so I doubt we would join if put in that category.
No race in the Covenant join without military action anyway, and it would reach a point were the humans would refuse peace, at least most of the military would (in one of the books a Colonel or some such figure makes that remark)

But lets go hypothetical and say we did join.
Humans strong point is our multipurpose-ness, recognized by a variety of Covenant creatures through out the books. So we would probably be the jack of all trades type, farming, military, etc.
We would probably be 5th in the hierarchy, Prophets, Elites, Hunters(they are special case, not really on the hierarchy), Brutes and then humans. We would probably be useful enough to not be classed as a 'lower' species and so would be given control of lower level species in battle. In battle I could see us serving a variety of roles also, just as we did during the human covenant war.

[Moustachio86]

As for joining before the beginning of the war? Without a war, there isn't as much pressure to improve existing technologies. The UNSC came up with a lot of creative technological solutions to combat the threat. I imagine we wouldn't command as much respect, especially with no Sangheili having seen us in combat.

This is a very good point. Though the constant insurrections must count for something. I think human nature would come out and we'd probably show through eventually; but not in the same way, I agree.

Civilian population is something I can't predict. I think for the most part what would happen is the Covenant would maybe section off a portion of the fleet to stay with us, then the majority of their nomadic group (High Charity etc.) would incorporate a large number of 'volunteers'. I mean, I expect the Elites would respect that, as such a large civilisation, the infrastructure and logistics involved in incorporating and entire civilisation is almost unfeasible.

I think the main problem by far is the fact we possibly wouldn't adapt without causing either major offence or committing heresy. We don't have the shared sense of honour and candour that Elites have, nor the pack mentality of the Brutes. We wouldn't take to being pushed around by either but we're physically less imposing. And I can't shake the thought that war would be inevitable because such a large amount of the population simply wouldn't have this Great Journey malarkey. We've had too long as a species 'alone', refining our own ideas and ideals to be so drastically incorporated.

Also, something that's never added up for me: the fact that the Covenant was so tooled up for war. Like, dedicated warships galore, millions if not billions of soldiers trained and armed. What exactly were they in combat with in the first place? As mentioned, humanity had insurrections to deal with but we only became a war machine one the H-C war really started. The Covenant hadn't needed to put down any massive rebellions recently nor had they come across a particularly defensive species, so why the aggression?

[Faced]

I think humans would also find a good role as tactical advisors,

Yer, giving them good tactics (not just brute force), like the Keyes Loop.

[Aunt Gruntie]

Also, something that's never added up for me: the fact that the Covenant was so tooled up for war. Like, dedicated warships galore, millions if not billions of soldiers trained and armed. What exactly were they in combat with in the first place? As mentioned, humanity had insurrections to deal with but we only became a war machine one the H-C war really started. The Covenant hadn't needed to put down any massive rebellions recently nor had they come across a particularly defensive species, so why the aggression?

 

 If I'm not mistaken, the Prophets and Elites were mortal enemies, and had a nasty war. Then they joined forces (by which I mean the Prophets forced the Elites into submission), or something along those lines. In any case I also would expect the newly formed 'Covenant' would have to put down or otherwise beat into submission any race that opposed them (Humans being the exception) and then add them into the Covenant, that is assuming said species had a useful role to play.

 

Also note this is coming from someone who has almost no knowledge of the Haloverse outside the games, so I may be horribly wrong.

[SternuS]

Oh yes, I didn't consider the cultural and religious aspect of the thing. No, I can now confirm we couldn't fit into it, by many reasons.

 

Also, something that's never added up for me: the fact that the Covenant was so tooled up for war. Like, dedicated warships galore, millions if not billions of soldiers trained and armed. What exactly were they in combat with in the first place? As mentioned, humanity had insurrections to deal with but we only became a war machine one the H-C war really started. The Covenant hadn't needed to put down any massive rebellions recently nor had they come across a particularly defensive species, so why the aggression?

 

That's because the Covenant was born as a Military Alliance, and as explained by Mercy in Halo 2, Arbiter's role was to calm rebellions (Unggoys never really joined the Covenant purposely) and force races to join the Alliance as cannon fodder (the Hunters tamed). As mentioned in the Kilo 5 books, Sangheili soon became non-self sufficient, training their children only to become great warriors. And it worked. The San 'Shyuum let Sangheili believe the power was equally divided between a Council, but the three High Prophets did what they wanted to do. Everything worked well, Yanme'e were recruited, Kig Yar were hired, and if an unrest shaked the peace inside the Alliance, brute force was a fair cooling system.

Let's just say, the true core of the Covenant wasn't faith, as the Prophets claimed to be, but military force. And the true core of military force was the Sangheili race, ordered, disciplined and proud.. In fact, soon after the Schism occured the Covenant was destroyed, even though it still had the most of its member inside it.

 If I'm not mistaken, the Prophets and Elites were mortal enemies, and had a nasty war. Then they joined forces (by which I mean the Prophets forced the Elites into submission), or something along those lines. In any case I also would expect the newly formed 'Covenant' would have to put down or otherwise beat into submission any race that opposed them (Humans being the exception) and then add them into the Covenant, that is assuming said species had a useful role to play.

 

Also note this is coming from someone who has almost no knowledge of the Haloverse outside the games, so I may be horribly wrong.

Pretty much this.

[m468]

I know it's alittle off topic for this thread but what the hell... Do you think it would be a good idea for humanity post Human-Covenant war to try and bring the grunts under their influence?

[sloosecannon]

Oh yes, I didn't consider the cultural and religious aspect of the thing. No, I can now confirm we couldn't fit into it, by many reasons.


That's because the Covenant was born as a Military Alliance, and as explained by Mercy in Halo 2, Arbiter's role was to calm rebellions (Unggoys never really joined the Covenant purposely) and force races to join the Alliance as cannon fodder (the Hunters tamed). As mentioned in the Kilo 5 books, Sangheili soon became non-self sufficient, training their children only to become great warriors. And it worked. The San 'Shyuum let Sangheili believe the power was equally divided between a Council, but the three High Prophets did what they wanted to do. Everything worked well, Yanme'e were recruited, Kig Yar were hired, and if an unrest shaked the peace inside the Alliance, brute force was a fair cooling system.
Let's just say, the true core of the Covenant wasn't faith, as the Prophets claimed to be, but military force. And the true core of military force was the Sangheili race, ordered, disciplined and proud.. In fact, soon after the Schism occured the Covenant was destroyed, even though it still had the most of its member inside it.
Pretty much this.

Well said SternuS. Very well worded indeed.

Also m4... Grunts? Why grunts? Lol

[Aunt Gruntie]

In one respect they're pretty good at learning new languages, but on the other hand i don't think many people would like having a subservient species, at least as far as mordern day western culture is concerned it would be to close to slavery. But in 500+ years? Who's to say what the political and cultural society will be like.

[SternuS]

Well said SternuS. Very well worded indeed.

Thank you.

 

In one respect they're pretty good at learning new languages, but on the other hand i don't think many people would like having a subservient species, at least as far as mordern day western culture is concerned it would be to close to slavery. But in 500+ years? Who's to say what the political and cultural society will be like.

You see, that's the reason Sangheili became non-self sufficient: they abandoned the economical and technological part of their knwoledge and let Grunts harvest the crops and Engineers build and repair basically everything. This way they focused only on the military training, and when the Covenant existed no more and Grunts and Engineers left Sangheilios (shockingly, there were also Jiralhanae working for the Elites, as reported in the Kilo 5 books. Strange. Evidently Brutes weren't so proud of their kind as Elites were), they were completely unaware of what to do to survive. This is what could happen to us if we let Grunts become the pillar of our economy.

This is just my opinion though. I hope the next Kilo 5 book will explain how did Jul gather almost all the Covenant under his domain.

[Bornstellaris]

I don't really see humanity fitting into the covenants structure. The covenant forced species into submission and as the war proved, we humans don't go down all that easily. Even with a peaceful first contact instead of the destruction of a UNSC battlegroup, a group like ONI wouldn't have let humanity be oppressed like that.

[Zero]

Personally if humanity were to join the Covenant, ONI would allow it only to infiltrate Covenant hierarchy. That's just what ONI does, it's not a black-ops organization like Cerberus that's xenophobic, but merely an intelligence agency capable of manipulating and controlling many things at once while not existing at the same time.

[Fleet ADM. Drian]

I have to say that if Humanity would have joined the Covenant, ONI would have probably ended up making humanity the top of the food chain or at least equal to elites , by doing what they do best assassination and undermining the Prophets religion, which could have resulted in a civil war with humanity, elites, some of the hunters, jackels, grunts against the Prophets and Brutes and the rest. Humanity is just good at making sure we are at the top of every food chain.

[SternuS]

Humanity is just good at making sure we are at the top of every food chain.

 

We've been annihilated by the Covenant.

Also, if a civil war would happen, it'd be us versus the entirety of the Covenant; bare in mind that not every Sangheili fought the Covenant Loyalists with Humanity, as we can see in Halo 4.

Don't forget that the Schism happened because the Sangheili were substituted with Jiralhanae; I'm sure that even though they would have discovered the thruth about Humans and Forerunners, and the lies of the Prophets, but still being the military head of the Covenant above the Brutes, the Schism would not have happened. Their honour has always been, and will always be, above their faith.

[XtremeRoflcopter]

That said, if it did 'work out', what about status? The Covenant has Engineers which would be greater than ours, I suspect our main role would be scientific. In terms of combat we wouldn't match the Brutes or Elites but I think they would respect our technology and use of it. I think in terms of hierarchy we probably would jostle a lot with the Brutes but not quite reach the Elites.

Thoughts?

Depends if we are taking into account the augmented bodies of the Spartan's. Since if it is as you say we would be likely be designated as scientific/military roles, I believe that in time the augmentations of the Spartan's could even give the a position at a notch below the elites if not at their same level. Although since the Spartans were few and far between the covenant high council would likely use Spartans as a black ops unit, to silence "heretics" and other rebellions. However, aside from this very small place in the covenant I truly doubt we could ever aspire to more than front line troops and researchers, since the Hierarches wouldn't really allow us near forerunner tech of major significance for obvious reasons (us making it work with the touch of the button) we would likely be used in other ways. Also take into mind that the other religions of humanity would likely have a hard time re-nouncing their faiths to join the covenant. At best I would see it as a portion of Humanity to join the covenant while the rest who refused would be destroyed.