Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Photo
- - - - -

Weapon Speed


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 Wulfbane

Wulfbane

    Crewman Apprentice

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 30 May 2016 - 07:31 PM

Hello,

 

First things first: Awesome. Pure epicness.

 

Second - One of the things that's been on my mind since watching videos of the mod and playing it myself is the speed of the weapons. When compared to that shown in the games and read about in the novels, I feel like the missiles and plasma weapons are traveling way too quickly in game (MAC's and lasers are good). When compared to the cinematic sequences and when read about in the books, the Humans generally had several seconds before impact from the guided plasma and the Covenant had several seconds before missile impact, the leading example being Cmdr. Keyes during the battle of Sigma Octanis where he was able to dodge the plasma and lead it to collide with a Covenant ship.  And the Covenant were able to outmaneuver missiles (after waiting several seconds) during the retrieval of Mjolnir from the science station. Granted, these instances are from a novel and things work differently in a game, but I think they're fair examples to use for my case :P. Heck, even the first MAC was slow enough for Cole's nemesis (...wife...) to alter flight trajectory via archer detonations.

 

I recognize there is a fine balance between staying true to the story and making a fun game. And you guys are doing a great job. This is just my suggestion on how the game could potentially be improved.

 

Cheers!

 

-Wulfbane


  • Unikraken likes this

#2 Lavo

Lavo

    Grand Master Modder/Design Lead

  • Mod Staff
  • 713 posts
  • LocationNot Uni's Basement

Posted 30 May 2016 - 07:56 PM

Just a heads up, weapon particles and travel effects are purely cinematic. They do not have an impact on damage as weapons always have 100% accuracy due to the game's engine.



#3 Unikraken

Unikraken

    친애하는 지도자

  • Administrators
  • 2,910 posts
  • Steam:Unikraken
  • LocationNew Mexico

Posted 31 May 2016 - 12:16 PM

Hello,
 
First things first: Awesome. Pure epicness.
 
When compared to that shown in the games and read about in the novels, I feel like the missiles and plasma weapons are traveling way too quickly in game (MAC's and lasers are good). When compared to the cinematic sequences and when read about in the books, the Humans generally had several seconds before impact from the guided plasma and the Covenant had several seconds before missile impact, the leading example being Cmdr. Keyes during the battle of Sigma Octanis where he was able to dodge the plasma and lead it to collide with a Covenant ship.  And the Covenant were able to outmaneuver missiles (after waiting several seconds) during the retrieval of Mjolnir from the science station. Granted, these instances are from a novel and things work differently in a game, but I think they're fair examples to use for my case :P.

Granted, these instances are from a novel and things work differently in a game


QFT
 

Heck, even the first MAC was slow enough for Cole's nemesis (...wife...) to alter flight trajectory via archer detonations.


You mean a series 1 MAC? Maybe even an experimental prototype given the text of the book?

 

One day someone will come along and complain that our ships are engaging too closely, because ships were shooting at each other in the 100,000 KM range in the books. SotP is a fast paced game. It was even faster, by huge margins, in the past. We slowed it down to what it is now over a series of nerfs.

 

SotP, at its core, is a Halo game forced, and I do mean quite literally forced, into SoaSE. Without huge amounts of concessions it wouldn't be possible. Slowing the mod down even further, for a visual effect that translate into gameplay in anyway, because SoaSE doesn't allow for dodging, would be extremely detrimental to the game.


[10:46:02 PM] VDNKh: Piercing Lance
[10:46:11 PM] VDNKh: fitting name for the ship that just fucked me

 

"Unikraken can soothe any nasties."


#4 Wulfbane

Wulfbane

    Crewman Apprentice

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 31 May 2016 - 06:20 PM

Just a heads up, weapon particles and travel effects are purely cinematic. They do not have an impact on damage as weapons always have 100% accuracy due to the game's engine.

 I recognize that weapons always hit and intended this suggestion merely for cinematic/visual experience. I can see where my suggestion may have been misleading in regards go dodging/misses, but that was not my intention. My apologies.

One day someone will come along and complain that our ships are engaging too closely, because ships were shooting at each other in the 100,000 KM range in the books. SotP is a fast paced game. It was even faster, by huge margins, in the past. We slowed it down to what it is now over a series of nerfs.

 

SotP, at its core, is a Halo game forced, and I do mean quite literally forced, into SoaSE. Without huge amounts of concessions it wouldn't be possible. Slowing the mod down even further, for a visual effect that translate into gameplay in anyway, because SoaSE doesn't allow for dodging, would be extremely detrimental to the game.

I didn't realize that a slight decrease in weapon animation speed would result in unparalleled catastrophic results for gameplay. I only assumed it would help in immersion as players would be able to better enjoy the weapons effects in a live session instead of through screen shots and slow motion replays since combat begins and ends so abruptly. But from your statement I can only assume then that my casual method of gameplay isn't what you had in mind developing SotP.

 

One of my statements that you appear to have glanced without thought is the following:

 

I recognize there is a fine balance between staying true to the story and making a fun game. And you guys are doing a great job. This is just my suggestion on how the game could potentially be improved.

 

 

I'm not the person complaining about range, so please don't predispose a hostile attitude towards my minor, cosmetic suggestion. 


  • Unikraken, omar and USMC_Motard like this

#5 Unikraken

Unikraken

    친애하는 지도자

  • Administrators
  • 2,910 posts
  • Steam:Unikraken
  • LocationNew Mexico

Posted 01 June 2016 - 12:34 AM

I didn't realize that a slight decrease in weapon animation speed would result in unparalleled catastrophic results for gameplay.

As an Admiral in snark, I appreciate this. I realize I probably came out of the gate a little strong, and I do apologize for that. I responded in short form during the tail end of my lunch break. I should've waited until I was able to respond more thoroughly.

 

I only assumed it would help in immersion as players would be able to better enjoy the weapons effects in a live session instead of through screen shots and slow motion replays since combat begins and ends so abruptly. But from your statement I can only assume then that my casual method of gameplay isn't what you had in mind developing SotP.

The crux of it is that, yes, your casual preference doesn't line up with our competitive intent. SotP is designed to be brutal and fast with a competitive slant. However, SoaSE runs on pure math. There is no random chance. Even things presented as randomness to the player are actually really basic arithmetic additions or subtractions, like asteroid fields' "chance to miss" just being a reduction in damage. Slowing down weapon travel effects by any noticeable amount would affect balance in ways that would take a lot of man-hours to rebalance. This would be much easier to explain if fans in general understood the game's mechanics as they work in the code, instead of just what you see at the end. Damage is backloaded, meaning it takes effect on the ship after the weapon effect completes. A good example of the issues adjustments can cause would be possibly reducing the weapon cooldown of MACs. Even a marginal change on some ships would result in the ship becoming mathematically superior to all other ships because of the way we handle combat rounds. Imagine getting two MAC rounds on your foe to their one. Slowing down also causes similar kinds of issues, namely things staying around longer than they should and thus laying down significantly more firepower than intended. We have to balance the mod in a way that ensures ships all have necessary functions and you can't spam one ship to victory. Changes to combat pace would affect damage values, abilities, health values, supply cost, and even the mod's economy.

Could we slow down combat in a way that would keep the mod working and satisfy your needs? Yes, but the amount of work that would have to go into it would set the project back by months due to having to tweak, then test, then tweak, then test in order to keep combat balance lore-friendly while simultaneously keeping the AI from falling apart. Combat would then be slower, but one of our major features when compared to other SoaSE mods (the speed of our games) would be gone. SotP is meant to be a compromise between the usual slow gameplay of SoaSE and the faster pace of more competitive RTS games. It's a middle ground with depth AND speed.

 

We actually did test slower combat than we have at the moment early on when we stepped away from the insanely fast combat of our first release and testers complained about how boring it was. We ultimately agreed and it never went public. The mod isn't just for SoaSE players, it's also for Halo's console fans who may not play many strategy games. We try to appeal to a very broad range of people all at once. Unfortunately, folks such as yourself suffer because of it.

 

One of my statements that you appear to have glanced without thought is the following:


I don't think addressing qualifiers is productive.
 

I'm not the person complaining about range, so please don't predispose a hostile attitude towards my minor, cosmetic suggestion.

The point I'm making is that what seems like a small change to you, or a need to adhere to lore without concession, can have unforeseen and large consequences. I'm trying to turn what to you is a small conversation about a single change into a meta-conversation that educates you about the convoluted environment we have to work in to force SoaSE to work as a Halo mod at all. We did have a conversation about this thread in our Skype call tonight and came to the basic conclusion I present above - a lot of work for negative gain.

 

Once again, I do apologize for coming off hostile initially, it wasn't my intent but rereading it now I see it very clearly from your perspective. Brevity was detrimental to effective communication in this case.


  • Fleet Admiral agigabyte, Idio, Sookendestroy1 and 3 others like this

[10:46:02 PM] VDNKh: Piercing Lance
[10:46:11 PM] VDNKh: fitting name for the ship that just fucked me

 

"Unikraken can soothe any nasties."


#6 Wulfbane

Wulfbane

    Crewman Apprentice

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 01 June 2016 - 03:41 PM

[All that stuff, including the informative Qualifier link]

Alrighty, thanks for the informative post. My understanding of the unnecessary hurdles this endeavor would entail has increased substantially and I don't wish to be the duck responsible for delays that affect all the other players.

 

Thanks for the info and keep up the good work on the game.


  • Unikraken likes this

#7 Aunt Gruntie

Aunt Gruntie

    Sterilized Food Nipples!

  • Contributor
  • 1,326 posts

Posted 04 June 2016 - 09:52 AM

would lowering the travel speed of the torpedoes and archers really affect gameplay? I wouldn't think so...


Help me Sergeant I'm lost in Kurfluffle land!

 

 


#8 Lavo

Lavo

    Grand Master Modder/Design Lead

  • Mod Staff
  • 713 posts
  • LocationNot Uni's Basement

Posted 05 June 2016 - 08:41 PM

would lowering the travel speed of the torpedoes and archers really affect gameplay? I wouldn't think so...

You should know how the BACKLOADED DamageApplyType type works. It applies the damage based on the travel speed of the projectile from point A to point B in a relatively, or completely, straight line. Thus changing this value will impact how long it takes for the damage of a weapon to be applied to an enemy ship.


  • USMC_Motard likes this

#9 USMC_Motard

USMC_Motard

    Crewman Apprentice

  • Members
  • 10 posts
  • LocationHell

Posted 14 July 2016 - 07:26 PM

Is there a possibility of using a optical illusion in the weapon cinematic to give the impression of the round traveling slower without actually changing the travel time of the projectile. IE have you ever watched a baseball pitcher pitch from left or right field. Notice how quickly the ball travels the path from pitcher to catcher. Now sit behind home plate. Notice how the speed of the ball is not changing but the travel time seems just a bit slower. A object moving in a linear path at high speeds is harder to track versus a object moving away or towards you. Let it be said that I am totally insane and that my suggestions almost never make sense, however it may be worth exploring.

 

-Myers



#10 USMC_Motard

USMC_Motard

    Crewman Apprentice

  • Members
  • 10 posts
  • LocationHell

Posted 14 July 2016 - 07:35 PM

Essentially what I am saying is that using Einstein's Equivalence Principle you could theoretically alter the plasma weapons to travel at the same speed but make the bolt seem bigger or leave a longer last trail which could theoretically make it easier for the eye to track which gives the illusion of a slower moving bolt while not changing the length of the cinematic and therefore not altering the damage output. This is all highly theoretical of course.

 

-Myers



#11 Crisiss

Crisiss

    Trap Lord

  • Authorized Playtester
  • 2,340 posts
  • LocationTrap House

Posted 15 July 2016 - 08:10 PM

Halo space battles are fought using very heavy weapons. UNSC ships get eaten alive by plasma fire and Covenant ships get nailed by barrages of pretty much everything that can go boom.

There is no need to extend the length of the battles. It is all very canon and makes SotP a one-of-a-kind Sins mod. We deviate from the rest in that our battles are extremely short compared to most other mods. The next fastest mod is maybe SoGE which is still many times longer. Not to mention it would be a massive pain in the ass to rebalance the entire mod for 2 or 3 seconds worth of weapons animation.
  • Unikraken and 베이클라이트 like this

Nothing happens to anybody which he is not fitted by nature to bear - Marcus Aurelius

Spoiler

Spoiler

#12 USMC_Motard

USMC_Motard

    Crewman Apprentice

  • Members
  • 10 posts
  • LocationHell

Posted 16 July 2016 - 09:25 PM

I never suggested changing the duration merely changing the way the animation looks. Albeit i am totally fine with the way the game performs i was simply offering a solution for Wulfbane's Question that would not alter the damage output. 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users