21 replies to this topic

[fightin-first]

so i was playing the new update, and i ran into an engagement where a single ORS heavy cruiser took out an anchor station (no health upgrades but full weapons) as well as 9 Paris-class heavy frigates, 2 level 5 Marathon-class cruisers and a level 5 phoenix-class assault ship... without losing its shield (it was level 6 at the start of the engagement)

 

i'm no balancing expert, but doesn't that seem just a little bit crazy?

 

also if that isn't crazy, anybody have any early game strategies for the UNSC? mine tends to be turtle, but as of this update that is not working anymore unless i super-rush ODPs (the AI got a hell of a lot more agressive, which is great but im not use to it and its kicking my ass XD)

[SternuS]

Covenant got a lot stronger

Spoiler

 

Jokes aside, the ORS-class Heavy Cruiser is one of the best ships in the Covenant roster. It can also be upgraded via research later in the game, giving it weapon and durability boosts.

I could picture it dealing with the fleet you've mentioned, but against a fully upgraded Anchor is quite impossible. Was the ORS alone or did it have an escort fleet?

[Aunt Gruntie]

Unless the ORS was max level, it proly shoulda died. Though the AI proly had all, or most of the passive weapon and shield research done so that definitely helped. Keep in mind though, the ORS doesn't truly come into it's own until mid to late game due to the ORS refit research. Also Anchors without health upgrades are fodder.

[Cole Protocol]

Spoiler

Oh my god I am in tears, literally. I need two like buttons now.

 

Pretty much what Grunt and Sternus said above, the ORS is a tanky ship. I am wholly unsurprised that it took that amount of hits, esp if that Anchor had no health upgrades. The Covenant are designed, just like in lore, to have insanely strong ships. They compensate for this though in how they can't rebuild nearly as fast.

 

Also.... did you use Nukes?

[Sev]

Huh, didn't realise the ORS-class was that powerful. As for early-game strategies, you need to try and get as much territory as you can to support the UNSC's research and economic power later on. To help with that, pit two frigates and a Phoenix colony with your Marathon, and send it in one direction, while you put four-seven frigates with your Phoenix capital and send it in the other direction. If you want to cover even more ground, about ten frigates and a Phoenix should be enough for most gravity wells I've found as well.

 

I've found that even with all these fleets running around early-game, you should somehow have enough resources to upgrade and build on your planets.

[Aunt Gruntie]

FYI, the starting Marathon and Phoenix can duo pretty much all the Neutral worlds. So that plus like 7-9 Paris class' and a colony ship for 2 separate teams.

[Whitehalomango]

FYI, the starting Marathon and Phoenix can duo pretty much all the Neutral worlds. So that plus like 7-9 Paris class' and a colony ship for 2 separate teams.

Thats pretty much my strategy. I have the duo of the caps which got off and wreck everything neutral then I fill up my fleet cap with a colony ship and as many Paris' as I can get, while I build civie stations and research all the economy stuff.. After taking over about half the map, I finally start researching military. After I finish researching pretty much everything, I build my shipyards and then I upgrade my fleet cap from the starting fleet to the biggest in one massive leap. Once this is done, I amass the largest fleet the world has ever seen on one planet and steamroll EVERYTHING. So, yeah, generally I spend over half the game with the starting fleet with very minimal defenses...

[Caesars_Legion]

Psst.... You now know how to kill the Mango. Just rush him

[Whitehalomango]

Ah but you see, i am kind enough to enlighten those without purpose or form, to give them a new hope, a new method. I am the light that shall guide the UNSC to victory...as long as nobody rushes us...Good thing that is but one of my many strategies! MUWAHAHAHAHA!

[hunter87j]

Yeah. First time I'm playing this mod, thought I'd try it on easy, and it seems WAY too unbalanced in the Covenant's favor. They were supposed to be tough, yes, but beatable with three to one odds. Soon as I start the campaign up I find an Assault Carrier in my backyard within ten minutes, though, and only frigates and MAC platforms to deal with it. 40 Paris frigates, 2 Marathons with nukes, 4 SABRE bases and 5 MAC platforms later and a single Covenant ship has chewed through all of it, and its shields are barely half way down.

 

Does the AI get a huge buff to build speed or something? The above comments seem to indicate that this thing was supposed to be a late game unit, not something thrown at me right from the start.

[Fleet Admiral agigabyte]

Neither AI gets stuff that quickly, so either your build is bugged or your internal clock is.

 

Also, a single CAS will get annihilated by 5 SMACs and frigate support.

[hunter87j]

I don't know what to tell you, then. Just tried another playthrough going by the above strategies, and I lost two Artemis cruisers to a single ORS in a straight up slugfest with SMAC support and two Autumn class cruisers helping out on Easy. ORS took some damage but then bugged out before I could kill it, then proceeded to take out every other colony I had while I was licking my wounds.

 

Covenant needs a rebalance. I'm no stranger to RTS games - Empire at War and its conversion mods have long been among my favorites, and I've completed both the base game and expansion on the highest difficulties - but I'm routinely getting my ass kicked even with fully fleshed out tech trees. Covvies are building ships faster than I can replace mine and their ORS cruisers are overpowered to the point where even the UNSC's post war vessels are losing with 4 to 1 odds despite supposedly being far superior. Weren't post war vessels supposed to have shields? I know that the Infinity and Strident class frigates had them, and supposedly energy shielding was standard issue for ships of the line by that point, Autumn class included.

[SiRD31M0S]

I'm going to say this under the assumption you're thinking of the OAS - the Titan - and not the ORS - the regular capital ship that can absolutely can't tank an SMAC and fleet support, barring some sort of hilariously corrupt download.

 

Truth be told, I'm pretty certain the only reason I can hold my own against the AI is because I've been playing the mod for the past several versions. I'd long ago nailed down my aggressive expansion technique.  From the official explanation we've been given, the Sins AI can't handle the faster pace of the mod compared to the original game, and requires a massive increase in income to get it to achieve any semblance of working properly. I seem to remember some sort of upcoming fix with regards to this, but I can't quite recall and it's neither here nor there regardless.

 

 

I'm no stranger to RTS games

Then you should be perfectly capable of learning how to overcome it. It's a fairly formidable barrier to entry, to be sure, but it's very possible. Your optimal expansion strategies, which researches you need to get when, and how to squeeze the most out of a planet as quickly as possible. Maintaining varied fleets and keeping them mobile is very important, as SMACs can't be trusted to defend planets on their own with this release, and neither can you rely on frigate spam. You're on the right track building the capitals, but they need accompanying fleets to take full advantage of the utility of their abilities.

 

The OAS is just a hilarious fleet killer. You basically just have to completely overwhelm it. The most reliable way I've found to deal with it at any point in a match is to lure it into range of 6+ SMACs with a supporting fleet, but not too closely so that it can hit the stations with its multiple weapons batteries. Another way is to rush Infinity, since it can beat the OAS one-on-one.

 

Weren't post war vessels supposed to have shields? I know that the Infinity and Strident class frigates had them, and supposedly energy shielding was standard issue for ships of the line by that point, Autumn class included.

They did indeed, and shield refits for UNSC capital ships were even a part of the release before this one. However, they were removed for a variety of inelegant reasons. It was a hassle to go out of your way to drop it on existing capital ships after completing the research, the AI apparently didn't make much use of it at all, and (if you would believe it) they made late-game UNSC fleets nigh unkillable.

 

I will say, though, that the AI does seem to cheat. On more than one occasion I've brought down the OAS, only to have the game announce, "Enemy titan detected" >literally< within the next 5-10 seconds.

 

All in all, I'd recommend playing with other people over the AI. Better for practice, and more realistic.

[hunter87j]

Okay, may've had the wrong ship, but that doesn't change the fact that the game is basically unwinnable if the AI is cheating. If the Covenant can build up their OAS before I can even research the Infinity (with all of my resources being dumped into that), how do you match the AI cranking one out every 5 minutes or sooner on top of their normal fleet build? From what I'm understanding it basically amounts to the player having to make a hail mary play and simply hope the AI decides not to rush them before they can amass enough resources. On the flip side of that coin, though, the only way to get those resources is to push out early and risk encountering the Covenant, at which point they start wiping out your colonies and ships in the early game where the UNSC is simply outmatched until they follow everything back to the source. That means more resources spent rebuilding and less on getting the Infinity, during which the AI is cheating to crank out their own hero unit in record time. I am going for a varied fleet (first things I try to nab are the Halberd Destroyers, carriers and Autumn class before going for Artemis, Valient and Infinity), but it's just a matter of raw resources and time. I can't match the AI's build speed for some reason, even with 6 planets under my control, and their assault carriers keep tearing through my fleets like paper.

 

Granted, this was a problem in the official lore, too, but that was solved via the Cole Protocol, which was the only reason the UNSC lasted long enough to win. Given that the planets are all linked through set routes, though, that aspect of game balancing goes right out the window since the AI knows where you are, and you aren't allowed to use the time they'd normally spend looking to build up your fleet and economy.

[SiRD31M0S]

If the Covenant can build up their OAS before I can even research the Infinity (with all of my resources being dumped into that), how do you match the AI cranking one out every 5 minutes or sooner on top of their normal fleet build?

Knowing your limits, taking opportunities, exploiting every single thing you possibly can, and just generally making yourself more and more difficult to kill with each passing battle. The general rules you have to learn for every game. It only takes time.

 

Your optimal expansion strategies, which researches you need to get when, and how to squeeze the most out of a planet as quickly as possible. Maintaining varied fleets and keeping them mobile is very important, as SMACs can't be trusted to defend planets on their own with this release, and neither can you rely on frigate spam. You're on the right track building the capitals, but they need accompanying fleets to take full advantage of the utility of their abilities.

 

The OAS is just a hilarious fleet killer. You basically just have to completely overwhelm it. The most reliable way I've found to deal with it at any point in a match is to lure it into range of 6+ SMACs with a supporting fleet, but not too closely so that it can hit the stations with its multiple weapons batteries. Another way is to rush Infinity, since it can beat the OAS one-on-one.

Also Anchors are important to your mobility, since they're your only way to avoid making seven jumps to go everywhere.

[Julian_2185]

SMACs are the way, my friend. SMACs are the light.

 

Haven't gotten around to downloading the latest build yet, but dear god, SMACs are an abomination as UNSC. I try to make sure that my entire planetary network is accessible from only two or three (ideally large) planets, then put dozens of SMACs on those points, facing the incoming phase lanes (manual placing will be needed). They're only 1,000 resources and take up 1 tactical slot; even on the smallest planets, you can put at least ten, plus a command station. On the best planets (e.g. large temperates), you can get close to a hundred.

 

No matter how tough the Covenant fleet is, everything dies when it runs into a wall of thirty SMACs at once. Add in carrier support with huge numbers of fighters and bombers to deal with the Covenant's sniper capitals and carriers, and it dies immediately.

 

At least for me, the AI's never been smart enough to keep the OAS out of range. However, if that's changed in the latest release, then the obvious fix is just to grab an Infinity, wait until the rest of the enemy fleet is dead, and then 1v1 the OAS.

 

(Oh, and nukes. Remember nukes. Never used them until recently, but they eat Covie capitals for breakfast.)

[Lavo]

On more than one occasion I've brought down the OAS, only to have the game announce, "Enemy titan detected" >literally< within the next 5-10 seconds.

That's due to how the AI gets their Titan. It has a "filler" Titan that instantly builds and then the "real" Titan warps in after a given amount of time. In reality it takes a lot longer for an AI's titan to build than a human's.

 

 

 

Okay, may've had the wrong ship, but that doesn't change the fact that the game is basically unwinnable if the AI is cheating. If the Covenant can build up their OAS before I can even research the Infinity (with all of my resources being dumped into that), how do you match the AI cranking one out every 5 minutes or sooner on top of their normal fleet build?

The Infinity is a much better warship than the OAS and also can be researched more quickly than an OAS. As a human you can also build an Infinity faster than an AI can build an OAS. Unfortunately, in Sins, the AI is very good or very, very bad. We have opted on the side of having a tougher AI than not having one at all; I recommend using a lower difficulty setting if the one you are playing on is too rough. Don't be afraid or ashamed of playing on easy. 

[Fleet Admiral agigabyte]

Lavo, Hunter is on easy.

Besides, I used to think it was absolutely ridiculous how strong they were when I first became a Playtester, but it just takes time to learn to deal with them.

[Lavo]

Lavo, Hunter is on easy.

Welp, I apologize for mentioning it then. To explain more, in SotP the AI gets a certain number of bonuses no matter what difficulty they are set to, unlike most Sins mods and the vanilla game itself. This is the reason the AI is so potent.

[hunter87j]

Yeah, just tried another game, actually timed it this time. Easy mode, Covenant had an ORS cruiser (I triple checked the name) 4 minutes and 38 seconds into the game. Jumped in on literally the first planet I captured right when I finished building the mines, curbstomped the Marathon and Phoenix ships I had there and then went on to wipe out my capitol before I could build a fleet capable of fending it off. 6 minutes from start of the game to loss. 

 

Does the AI just simply start with the ORS as a buildable unit? It's already confirmed that it cheats, and that's the only way I can reason this happening over and over again.

 

It might've been the OAS before, but something's wrong here if the Covenant is getting a late game unit on Easy before I can even begin building MAC platforms or a second Marathon. Either I've got a bug or the Covenant's laughably overpowered with this build of the game as the thread title indicates. Regardless, the strategy that you guys have been endorsing with the Infinity might work if the AI weren't this aggressive and wasn't able to build units at four times the pace I apparently can. As things currently are all I see a player able to do is hope and pray the Covenant doesn't find their world within five minutes of game start, otherwise you're done.