28 replies to this topic

[Dianno5741]

So i recently had a discussion with the high ranking developers about the MAC damage in game. This is largely based on the fact that there is not alot of information about ship based MACS except that they all fire 600 ton projectiles at 30 kilometers per second. SMACS fire 3000 ton slugs at 4% the speed of light (12000 km per second). So my big concern was that we didnt have canon MACs since cruisers do more MAC damage per shot than frigates and its largely "conjecture" that they would have different MAC types.
So what we came up with was that Standard MACs were widely used on frigates and destroyers with cruisers getting a long barreled version of the MAC to do the "double damage"

I of course busted out math and physics to make sure this was at least semi accurate.

SO..................................

The standard MAC projectile then would do damage based on its kinetic energy which is 1/2mv^2.

We are assuming Ton is a "Short ton" not a metric ton. This is arbitrary if im Wrong as the value is constant and therefore poses no threat to the relationship, just the value.

Anyway the Kinetic energy that a projectile would impact a ship with would be 1/2(545454.5 kgs)(30km/s)^2 which equals 2.45*10^14 Joules (kg*m /s^2) ( i converted kilometers to meters).

In order to double the amount of energy and therefore double the damage you simply multiply that answer in joules by 2 for this equation

4.91 * 10^14 = 1/2(545454.5)(v^2)

This doubles your kinetic energy, using the same mass (same projectile) and allowing us to solve for the velocity.
Which in order to propel the same slug to do double damage it would need to be traveling at 42426.4 meters per second or 42.4 km per second rather than the standard 30 km per second.

Now we take the relationship of the velocity which is essentially the graph y=x^2 a parabola. This means that y = (30)^2 is 900 "units" so a standard MAC is 900 "Units" which is arbitrary as i could dictate that 900 units equals 200 meters or whatever value we want.
Then you use y=(42.4)^2 is 1797.8 "units" So whatever we dictate the units for the first 900 then it has to be almost double that to follow the relationship

SO this means that if a standard MAC is to fit on a charon frigate approx 417 meters long, the MAC could be like 250 meters long or our 900 "units".

So the length of a cruiser MAC would need to be double this or need to be 500 meters long in order to satisfy our relationship (much like i do with jr spartans mom).
This can easily be achieved as a halcyon and marathon cruiser classes are about 1200 meters in length.

Hope this has been enlightening as to our strive for perfection not only in canon but in scientific fact.

[Faced]

All I understoud was: Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah speed of light Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah SMAC's Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah physics Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

[Unikraken]

Someone get Faced the crayons while we adults talk this one out.

[Faced]

Crayons?!

Spoiler

[Zero]

We are assuming tonnage is "Short ton" not metric ton.

Well it's wrong either way because tonnage in naval terms is regarding the sum of all internal storage spaces on a ship. An example being the USS Enterprise aircraft carrier has the same tonnage as a Marathon-class cruiser.

Tonnage

[Unikraken]

Well it's wrong either way because tonnage in naval terms is regarding the sum of all internal storage spaces on a ship. An example being the USS Enterprise aircraft carrier has the same tonnage as a Marathon-class cruiser.

Tonnage

This is nitpicking isn't it? We understand what he means. He's not sure about what "ton" the round is weighed in, but it doesn't matter either way.

[Zero]

Well his calculations would be wrong otherwise. I would assume when they say a 600-ton slug, it's in Metric tons (or tonnes) because the speed of the projectile and the measurements of everything in Halo is in the metric system, so 1000kg.

So the calculation 1/2(600,000kg)(30,000m/s)^2 would be 2.7x10^14 Joules, which is larger than 2.45x10^14 Joules.

[Defender0]

DIANNO, OUR CANNONS DONT SHOOT MACS!

other than that, the physics make sense

[Unikraken]

Well his calculations would be wrong otherwise. I would assume when they say a 600-ton slug, it's in Metric tons (or tonnes) because the speed of the projectile and the measurements of everything in Halo is in the metric system, so 1000kg.

As he said in the title thread, the relationship is the key thing here and it's still relevant. Basically, he wanted to see if our damage profiles for the MAC was at least in the ball park of correct and that does seem to be the case.

Frigate = 500
Destroyer = 500x2
Halcyon = 1000
Marathon = 1000x2

[Dianno5741]

Zero
AS i stated before. If something like the mass of the slug is off, that would only change the value of kinetic energy, which would then change the value of kinetic energy for a cruiser MAC. The relationship remains the same as something like Mass in this equation is a constant and therefore can be canceled out. Change that value in the equations above and I guarentee youll find that X frigate MAC distance will need to = 2X

In lamens terms. It doesnt matter.
And you are wrong in this. Tonnage of a vessel is = to its displacement which can also mean its overall size. A metric or short ton is a unit of measurement much like a kilogram is to a gram. The british navy have tonnage vessels and have guns that are 16 pounders rather than a 12 inch gun. its all relative

[Dianno5741]

example

Lets use 1 ton as a weight for a mac slug

KE of a normal MAC would be 1/2(1ton)(30km)^2 which is equal to 450 ton km /s^2

Multiplied by 2 for double damage equals 900 = 1/2(1 ton)(v^2)

V=42.4 km/s

[Zero]

And you are wrong in this. Tonnage of a vessel is = to its displacement which can also mean its overall size. A metric or short ton is a unit of measurement much like a kilogram is to a gram. The british navy have tonnage vessels and have guns that are 16 pounders rather than a 12 inch gun. its all relative

Tonnage is a measure of the size or cargo carrying capacity of a ship. The term derives from the taxation paid on tuns or casks of wine, and was later used in reference to the weight of a ship's cargo; however, in modern maritime usage, "tonnage" specifically refers to a calculation of the volume or cargo volume of a ship. Tonnage should not be confused with Displacement which refers to the loaded or empty weight of the vessel itself.

1.
the capacity of a merchant vessel, expressed either in units of weight, as deadweight tons, or of volume, as gross tons.
2.
ships collectively considered with reference to their carrying capacity or together with their cargoes.
3.
a duty on ships or boats at so much per ton of cargo or freight, or according to the capacity in tons.

n.

• amount, in tons, of shipping, etc.
  
• carrying capacity of a ship

Tonnage by all definitions has nothing to do with total displacement, only enclosed displacement within the ship (ie hallways, cargo rooms, etc.) In terms of the Halo universe, cargo capacity makes much more sense since it would be impossible for a Marathon-class cruiser to have a tonnage of 100,000 since that is the same size as the cargo capacity of the USS Enterprise.

Also I am aware that mass cancels out when comparing dKE. However, if one wanted to see how much damage a round did, then it wouldn't be very accurate. I always assume the Halo universe is dictated by metric system just because everything is always described in the metric system.

[Dianno5741]

well i havnt done any sort of calculation of tonnage or size displacement for these vessels. And thats to say there not using some system that is semi foreign since they cant use displacement.

There are hundreds of factors in determining impact damage, the KE is a factor, the strength of material, the impact angle, the speed of opposing ship, the materials and impurities in those materials and on and on and on


But assuming all MAC rounds are created equal and all covenant ships or UNSC ships are exactly the same and perfect and they are all hit square on not moving and a bunch of other assumptions which wouldnt be true on the battlefield then youd be right that the KE of the round would only be a part of the damage.
HOWEVER
For the purposes of this game, the physics of KE for round purposes would be enough to justify our discussion. All other factors must be assumed like physics classes assume the friction of air is zero when doing kinematics. We are assuming all other factors are zero and the major factor is KE.

[Zero]

well i havnt done any sort of calculation of tonnage or size displacement for these vessels. And thats to say there not using some system that is semi foreign since they cant use displacement.

I know you didn't, I was simply pointing out that you used the term tonnage incorrectly when explaining the mass of the object since it's not a measurement of mass but volume of an internal space.

[Dianno5741]

i will edit it to say im assuming the ton used is short ton then, so not to confuse tonnage with displacement.

[Dhoulmegus]

Sheeeeit. Looks good to me.

[Kommrad II]

My mind, fuck.

[Unikraken]

This just goes to show how seriously we mod staff take our work.

[Faced]

Work? more like Miracles

[Defender0]

so, dianno, bottom line: what am i testing now?