37 replies to this topic

[Rovert10]

That mean its 1-3 all game for the first release and then the 2 release makes it 1-1 for the whole game? Or are you planning on adding late game tech like UNSC gets shields and covie get much more fleet points to get their numbers up to par with UNSC. Cause it seems like a lot of wasted effort balancing a 3-1 fight just to redo it all just because of titans, at least thats how you make it seem in your post.

That's the UNSC in the very late game. The Covenant has the tools to essentially steamroll the UNSC for the majority of the game. If you let the UNSC get to that point of Infinity you deserve to lose.

[sloosecannon]

That mean its 1-3 all game for the first release and then the 2 release makes it 1-1 for the whole game? Or are you planning on adding late game tech like UNSC gets shields and covie get much more fleet points to get their numbers up to par with UNSC. Cause it seems like a lot of wasted effort balancing a 3-1 fight just to redo it all just because of titans, at least thats how you make it seem in your post.

Basically, right now, the UNSC can get to something like 2.5:1 to 2:1 in lategame. Since they can field almost 3x as many ships as the covenant, that means they have the advantage in lategame.

In the next release, it will start off somewhere near there and approach 1:1. We can still keep the balance using supply costs and keep it a fair fight, but adjust the "tipping point" if you will...

[Kevik70]

I don't know about you but when UNSC ships are getting shields that are even better than Covenant by the time Infinity comes around the entire balance is skewed to the point where CAS isn't be all and end all like Infinity. 

Which is why they need a powerful titan to keep the balance. Just make it a upgraded version of a standard CAS if you have too, that way you get both a titan and a spamming fleet of CASs. Or make a non canon ship for the titan role I did suggest that in the suggestion area. While I am not privy to all the discussions taking place between the mod staff or even how the tech tree currently played out I do have hundreds of hours of Sins play time (Original, Entrenchment. Rebellion) chalked up, so I am not completely without a clue.

 

This is a game and balance is needed to make fair and fun gameplay, if the UNSC can built 3 ships to 1 covie ship in the beginning its fair when covie ships can kill 3 ships for every one it loses. If the UNSC can now have more powerful ships compared to covenant AND still retain a 3 -1 built rate, things get unbalanced. And in Sins it doesn't take all that long before the final tech levels. In Halo Lore it is fine that Humans can now beat the covenant with ease, its a story based sorta on real life principles where unfair is the name of the game. Unlike a game were like I said balance is key to having fun.

 

Now I don't know if all UNSC ships will get shields or only some or only Infinity. You make it sound like all of them do or maybe your just referring to lore, i don't really know.  From what the other guy said the beginning of the game will be 3-1 fights but late game changes to 1-1 or maybe he was referring to 2 different release states that effectively make 2 separate mods. I really don't have much of a clue there, I can only go based on whats said. 

 

 

I really hope I am not sounding too much like a prick or something, I really do enjoy this mod, I like Halo, I like Sins, so its only right that I like them merged. I hope you keep up the hard work and make the mod the best it can be. If I can make it better by just  making you think about your own opinions on certain topics then I will, by all means express my thoughts on said matter and make you think.

 

 

 

 

That's the UNSC in the very late game. The Covenant has the tools to essentially steamroll the UNSC for the majority of the game. If you let the UNSC get to that point of Infinity you deserve to lose.

 

If you don't let the UNSC make it to late game than the UNSC player won't get to have much fun. If you have the UNSC much more powerful late game than it won't be much fun for the covenant player. Getting to late game isn't hard and the bigger the map the easier it is. The gameplay should be balanced for the entire game not just somepoint in the middle.

[Emberblaque]

Which is why they need a powerful titan to keep the balance. Just make it a upgraded version of a standard CAS if you have too, that way you get both a titan and a spamming fleet of CASs. Or make a non canon ship for the titan role I did suggest that in the suggestion area. While I am not privy to all the discussions taking place between the mod staff or even how the tech tree currently played out I do have hundreds of hours of Sins play time (Original, Entrenchment. Rebellion) chalked up, so I am not completely without a clue.

 

This is a game and balance is needed to make fair and fun gameplay, if the UNSC can built 3 ships to 1 covie ship in the beginning its fair when covie ships can kill 3 ships for every one it loses. If the UNSC can now have more powerful ships compared to covenant AND still retain a 3 -1 built rate, things get unbalanced. And in Sins it doesn't take all that long before the final tech levels. In Halo Lore it is fine that Humans can now beat the covenant with ease, its a story based sorta on real life principles where unfair is the name of the game. Unlike a game were like I said balance is key to having fun.

 

Now I don't know if all UNSC ships will get shields or only some or only Infinity. You make it sound like all of them do or maybe your just referring to lore, i don't really know.  From what the other guy said the beginning of the game will be 3-1 fights but late game changes to 1-1 or maybe he was referring to 2 different release states that effectively make 2 separate mods. I really don't have much of a clue there, I can only go based on whats said. 

 

 

I really hope I am not sounding too much like a prick or something, I really do enjoy this mod, I like Halo, I like Sins, so its only right that I like them merged. I hope you keep up the hard work and make the mod the best it can be. If I can make it better by just  making you think about your own opinions on certain topics then I will, by all means express my thoughts on said matter and make you think.

 

 

 

 

 

If you don't let the UNSC make it to late game than the UNSC player won't get to have much fun. If you have the UNSC much more powerful late game than it won't be much fun for the covenant player. Getting to late game isn't hard and the bigger the map the easier it is. The gameplay should be balanced for the entire game not just somepoint in the middle.

It's the nature of the two factions. It's what defines their playstyles. The UNSC is a turtle-boom hybrid faction and the Covenant is a rush faction. In virtually every RTS there are factions that are most effective at certain times in the game. It creates tension. The UNSC player is struggling to survive until they can overtake the enemy economy, and the Covenant player is struggling to destroy the enemy before they can overtake their economy. We need more variety than the UNSC having more, weaker ships, and the Covenant having less, stronger ships.

 

If you've ever played R.U.S.E., the UNSC are the French, and the Covenant are the Italians. Italians are useless in twenty minutes. French can get overrun fast if they fail to turtle quickly and strongly enough. But the Italians were still fun to play because you could also possibly overrun someone in ten minutes. And the French were still fun to play because you were maintaining a defense under constant threat with little capacity to retaliate.

 

R.U.S.E. had some very clear RTS faction playstyle archetypes. I find it makes for a good example in these situations.

[sloosecannon]

referring to 2 different release states that effectively make 2 separate mods.

Yep. That's the plan. Both will be for Rebellion, but the second release will be the post-halo 4 stuff. We're asking the creative department to get us a cool-sounding "expansion" name so we can decrease the confusion here...

[Defender0]

No offense guys, but excuse me while i quote the kraken...

 

 

 

 

Off Topic!

[Kevik70]

It's the nature of the two factions. It's what defines their playstyles. The UNSC is a turtle-boom hybrid faction and the Covenant is a rush faction. In virtually every RTS there are factions that are most effective at certain times in the game. It creates tension. The UNSC player is struggling to survive until they can overtake the enemy economy, and the Covenant player is struggling to destroy the enemy before they can overtake their economy. We need more variety than the UNSC having more, weaker ships, and the Covenant having less, stronger ships.

 

If you've ever played R.U.S.E., the UNSC are the French, and the Covenant are the Italians. Italians are useless in twenty minutes. French can get overrun fast if they fail to turtle quickly and strongly enough. But the Italians were still fun to play because you could also possibly overrun someone in ten minutes. And the French were still fun to play because you were maintaining a defense under constant threat with little capacity to retaliate.

 

R.U.S.E. had some very clear RTS faction playstyle archetypes. I find it makes for a good example in these situations.

So how would this be balanced for different sized maps, small maps the Covenant are OP and large maps make the Humans OP. Like I have said before it doesn't take a sins game long to reach top tiers and its even easier to do on larger maps. It doesn't quite balance from what I can tell, plus the AI would not be able to use the tactics needed to win under these circumstances. 

 

I am way off topic now so we may just want to start a new thread for this discussion, because I have plenty of fight left in me.

[Rovert10]

So how would this be balanced for different sized maps, small maps the Covenant are OP and large maps make the Humans OP. Like I have said before it doesn't take a sins game long to reach top tiers and its even easier to do on larger maps. It doesn't quite balance from what I can tell, plus the AI would not be able to use the tactics needed to win under these circumstances. 

 

I am way off topic now so we may just want to start a new thread for this discussion, because I have plenty of fight left in me.

AI is inherently stupid, you can win with freaking Charon spam if you totally abuse the AI quirks. I was able to kill a Covenant AI two jumps from my homeworld with just kiting a capital in circles and having Charons shoot with impunity. Why? Because the AI chases capitals for days.

 

You can cross a system quickly as the Covenant since you have faster slipspace. It ain't hard to cross the system as Covenant to set up for your rush.

Multi-star maps are inherently unbalanced especially on random since you're essentially left to the devices of random map generation of whether or not you're just screwed or safe on start. You can start with 2 Covenant in your system and get fucked over or be all UNSC as the Covenant. There's a reason why in all of hundreds upon hundreds of games in competitive multiplayer SoaSE for the course of 3 years were all games in single star maps. Multi-stars are hardly any balancing metric.

[m468]

Basicly this is a complex topic on balence that would probably be better off in te dev or the play tester sections so if we are going to continue it let's move it so as not confuse people

[Kevik70]

AI is inherently stupid, you can win with freaking Charon spam if you totally abuse the AI quirks. I was able to kill a Covenant AI two jumps from my homeworld with just kiting a capital in circles and having Charons shoot with impunity. Why? Because the AI chases capitals for days.

 

You can cross a system quickly as the Covenant since you have faster slipspace. It ain't hard to cross the system as Covenant to set up for your rush.

Multi-star maps are inherently unbalanced especially on random since you're essentially left to the devices of random map generation of whether or not you're just screwed or safe on start. You can start with 2 Covenant in your system and get fucked over or be all UNSC as the Covenant. There's a reason why in all of hundreds upon hundreds of games in competitive multiplayer SoaSE for the course of 3 years were all games in single star maps. Multi-stars are hardly any balancing metric.

I don't mean to be rude but isn't your goal and aim to make things balanced and fair? At least I think it should be anyways. Random maps should be able to make that much of an effect on whether you win or not, its a strategy game and your strategy matters or should matter, not some random spawn. And aren't some of the maps created for the entrenchment maps basically multi star maps. (like 30+ stars or something like that)

 

 

Basicly this is a complex topic on balence that would probably be better off in te dev or the play tester sections so if we are going to continue it let's move it so as not confuse people

I agree this isn't the topic to continue the debate but the tester page and dev section is well not somewhere I can get, and I seem to be the driving questionnaire behind this fight now so I will make a new topic here in general for the time being. But not now since I have class in just a few.

[SPECTRE]

Now about the Shadow of Intent nothing is known. It may still belong to the Arbiter. 

The Ship master Rtas vadum (now fleetmaster) was given command of it by the arbiter and pushes back the brutes with it. The guy who made a fistfull of arrows made one about the arbiter, Rtas and a former Councillor fighting the brutes. FYI a fistful of arrows and the one i'm speaking of are officially canon as 343 advertised it and is now on the wikis (most likely halopedia)

[Dianno5741]

Kevik. Of course our aim is to make things fair. But no rts game in the history of main stream rts such as sc, coh, mow, wic, dow, and even competitive rpgs have complete balance for everything. Company of heroes was more unbalanced as you get 3v3 and beyond. Mulitstar

[Dianno5741]

Systems are our 3v3. It'll be balanced but not competitively so. Big financed studios have issues with that

[m468]

The Ship master Rtas vadum (now fleetmaster) was given command of it by the arbiter and pushes back the brutes with it. The guy who made a fistfull of arrows made one about the arbiter, Rtas and a former Councillor fighting the brutes. FYI a fistful of arrows and the one i'm speaking of are officially canon as 343 advertised it and is now on the wikis (most likely halopedia)

Was it damaged at all, besides what we saw in Halo 3?

[Kevik70]

Kevik. Of course our aim is to make things fair. But no rts game in the history of main stream rts such as sc, coh, mow, wic, dow, and even competitive rpgs have complete balance for everything. Company of heroes was more unbalanced as you get 3v3 and beyond. Mulitstar

 

 

 

Systems are our 3v3. It'll be balanced but not competitively so. Big financed studios have issues with that

Thanks I am just getting mixed info/ incomplete info (I know you want to keep some stuff secret). Rovert makes it sound like the Hu mans will get more and more powerful reletive to the covenant as time goes on while seemingly maintaining a construction advantage. Then another mod makes it sound like 3-1 fights will be the first release and 1-1 battles will be Titans, effectively 2 making separate mods, and he stated as such. I don't know if you guys have even decided what is going on yet but I am certainly getting confused. And to think this argument started on wether the Covie should get a Titan or not. (Which I believe they should......not just because i started a topic on it)

 

Was it damaged at all, besides what we saw in Halo 3?

 

Well the Engineers should have fixed it up before they all fled. It certainly operational to some degree. Arbriter probably didn't use it vs the Storm guys because, 1: it may not have been close at hand, 2: He may not have had enough crew quick enough to man it, and 3: he knew he didn't need the overwhelming amounts of firepower when 4 cruisers were more than enough.

[m468]

Thing is those cruisers wouldn't have gotten their in time so yah it could have been out of system. Regardless I have a feeling that the Thel (that is his name after all) sticks by his word and he is the defacto leader of the Sanghellii military at the very least. Any way the Shadow of Intent wouldn't be too much of a threat by itself even with 4 or so cruisers. So my point still stands (thanks for the info about Shadow of Intent).

[Dianno5741]

The balance of the game is gearing towards the humans needing to hold on for dear life early and mid game. Tech will help even the playing field but this is where the game will resemble the war circa 2550 ish

 

By the end, if the UNSC player fields their Infinity Titan, it will level the playing field but one ship is one ship. Itll take alot more to even the odds completely and tahts still a long ass way into the game.

[sloosecannon]

Dianno, infinity is not in the first release... Unless we magically can make that happen in a very limited timespan. Hence the 2 separate releases. But yeah, infinity will crush balance second only to Forerunner caps...

@kevik: that's why we said it should be a staff discussion... Now, one last time... Back on topic please... I'll keep the thread unlocked but we're really off topic. If you need an answer, mine is the (closest) to official. We will be having 2 releases. The first one will be the pre-reach war. The second one (with a different name likely) will feature the Infinity and the post h4 era stuff. Balancing will probably be completely different on the two-much like HCE or Reach vs H4 where infinity noms a cruiser with its shields. If that doesn't satisfy, I'm always available to chat on steam or something.

Now...

https://i.chzbgr.com...3648/h6A3A1D8F/