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How to fight a galactic war in a game made for interplanetary war


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#21 Kevik70

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 09:18 PM

So a seemingly simple way to give yourselves a feel for galactic warfare is to just manipulate galaxy forge maps and add them as senerios. In on of the entrenchment maps there is a triple star system where you can jump to the stars and the planets in each of their control zones actually connect to planets in the other star control zones.

 

So if you add a bunch of stars and planets surrounding them, them attach those planets to their parent stars and to planets in nearby stars it gives you multiple ways to navigate the map. You can push planet by planet up the chains or skip through star jumps bypassing layers of defenses possibly. 

 

I am not sure I am explaining it well enough so I will add a picture of what I am thinking

 

NCtOJON.png?1

 

So the lines in bold print are phase lanes (slip lanes) while the thin ones are slips lines between the stars, things that are there but not shown.

 

So if player one wants to get from rthe red system to the Blue system he can either directly jump to it or jump from the top most red planet into the green system and likewise from a green planet to the blue planet. Or he can do both at the same time and trap a helpless enemy fleet between 2 of his own.

 

Idk I think this would be cool but it would have to be done by someone much better at galaxy forge than myself. If you want me to make a larger picture with more stars and planets just ask. (though I will probably do it now anyways :)



#22 Emberblaque

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 09:39 PM

The problem isn't that there isn't enough maneuvering possible, even though most of the time you have to travel to a star to travel to a planet in another planetary system in Sins, which is strange and inconvenient. The problem is that performance issues arise once you hit a certain map size. Uni's suggestion offers the simulation of a greater amount of space with the same cost in performance by making each in-game object represent a larger actual object than in vanilla Sins. Points for effort.



#23 Kevik70

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 10:01 PM

The problem isn't that there isn't enough maneuvering possible, even though most of the time you have to travel to a star to travel to a planet in another planetary system in Sins, which is strange and inconvenient. The problem is that performance issues arise once you hit a certain map size. Uni's suggestion offers the simulation of a greater amount of space with the same cost in performance by making each in-game object represent a larger actual object than in vanilla Sins. Points for effort.

Hmmm yeah, well I do like my suggestion and maybe someone will turn it into a playable map if you guys don't do something strange with the planet mesh.

 

On the note of having to jump to a star as inconvenience, if we look at it from outside a game perspective than it would actually make sense to jump to a star first when entering a system. Since planets move constantly and moons and other such items calculating for all these factors would be an inconvenience. So you jump to a relatively non moving star first you can safely plot a shorter jump to your final destination. Only saying thins because I read it in a Star Wars book... whcih actually make some sense if we had faster than light travel.



#24 KhevaKins

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 10:35 PM

Hmmm yeah, well I do like my suggestion and maybe someone will turn it into a playable map if you guys don't do something strange with the planet mesh.

 

On the note of having to jump to a star as inconvenience, if we look at it from outside a game perspective than it would actually make sense to jump to a star first when entering a system. Since planets move constantly and moons and other such items calculating for all these factors would be an inconvenience. So you jump to a relatively non moving star first you can safely plot a shorter jump to your final destination. Only saying thins because I read it in a Star Wars book... which actually make some sense if we had faster than light travel.

No one said traveling in Slipspace is easy, that is why almost ever slipspace capable ship has some form of navigation AI to help use Slipspace. There are many examples where ships jump straight to planets rather than to stars in the Halo universe.

Infact I think it would be more unrealistic to jump to a star, especially for UNSC ships as the heat would mostly likely scorch the average human ship, which have windows and ports and comms and all manner of other exterior weaknesses, Halo Wars be damned.


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#25 Emberblaque

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:30 PM

Fuck heat, you're traveling to the bottom of the gravity well just to waste fuel escaping it again. If there is no slipspace analogue in the thought experiment and you're traveling conventionally, you might travel closely to the star as part of a gravity assist to reduce your velocity and enter orbit around the star or to adjust to a trajectory to enter orbit around one of the star's planets. Otherwise I find it absurd.


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#26 KhevaKins

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:38 PM


Infact I think it would be more unrealistic to jump to a star, especially for UNSC ships as the heat would mostly likely scorch the average human ship, which have windows and ports and comms and all manner of other exterior weaknesses, Halo Wars be damned.

Fuck heat, you're traveling to the bottom of the gravity well just to waste fuel escaping it again. If there is no slipspace analogue in the thought experiment and you're traveling conventionally, you might travel closely to the star as part of a gravity assist to reduce your velocity and enter orbit around the star or to adjust to a trajectory to enter orbit around one of the star's planets. Otherwise I find it absurd.

Just had an idea. If this is implemented we can give the actually star a radius buff that slows and damages ships if they get to close, however I'm not sure if that is even possible.


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#27 Lavo

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:43 PM

So a seemingly simple way to give yourselves a feel for galactic warfare is to just manipulate galaxy forge maps and add them as senerios.

This has been done for Sins before. It never works out well because the z-axis in Sins is entirely random. You don't want to do this, unless you're putting in very few systems.



#28 Moustachio86

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:16 AM

I'm confused by the 'room to manourvre' issue. Bombarding stars issues and the like aside, I don't see why we apparently need more room to get around? I thought SotP was all about chokepoints. Maps from the Beta like Fall of Reach and Epsilon Eridani seemed to simulate the grand scale of Halo quite accurately and enjoyably. While I think it's a great idea theoretically I'm not sure if it's necessary.

Also, stars damaging ships is VERY possible. Stellar DLC adds black holes which rip apart fleets that take too long getting out of there. Stars have plenty of effect slots, much like most of the uncolonisable worlds. The only reason colonisable worlds don't is because the UI gets in the way which is rather frustrating. Customisation of planets (outside well size and asteroids) is something the mod hasn't done yet but I think would be worthwhile in time. Possibly to supplement this idea or even to replace it completely if it doesn't get the thumbs up.

#29 Emberblaque

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:32 AM

I'm confused by the 'room to manourvre' issue. Bombarding stars issues and the like aside, I don't see why we apparently need more room to get around? I thought SotP was all about chokepoints. Maps from the Beta like Fall of Reach and Epsilon Eridani seemed to simulate the grand scale of Halo quite accurately and enjoyably. While I think it's a great idea theoretically I'm not sure if it's necessary.

It wasn't a benefit suggested by Uni, I was just saying it might offer more maneuverability on a tactical scale, which seems to have been regarded as a positive thing in the past, and is a unique feature of our mod, given the larger than average grav well sizes. I suggested that grav well size be increased even more if this change is made or a separate mod is started. I would distinguish it from the degree of strategic maneuverability that we've set with our intentional chokepoints. Instead of chokepoints being at individual planets, they would be at planetary systems.


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#30 KhevaKins

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:32 AM

I know they can damage ships when they are in the same gravity well but can they be given a limited radius buff that only extends a short distance around the star so you can fly freely around a solar system but get to close to the star and you get burned.

Also if we were to use solar systems I would assume we would increase logistic and tactical slots there by meaning you should be able to build a lot more SMACs and so can create your own chokepoints in the system.

We could also increase the required research stations.


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#31 Kevik70

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:16 AM

I know they can damage ships when they are in the same gravity well but can they be given a limited radius buff that only extends a short distance around the star so you can fly freely around a solar system but get to close to the star and you get burned.

Also if we were to use solar systems I would assume we would increase logistic and tactical slots there by meaning you should be able to build a lot more SMACs and so can create your own chokepoints in the system.

We could also increase the required research stations.

I don't know if would work out to well, the AI is pretty stupid in such regards. Not only that the AI would take your own ships too close to a star and strike craft always  seem to fly right through the star when engaging enemies.

 

 

As for the star travel you point yourselves at the star when exiting but you leave slip/hype well outside, my bad for quoting it wrong.



#32 KhevaKins

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:58 AM

I don't know if would work out to well, the AI is pretty stupid in such regards. Not only that the AI would take your own ships too close to a star and strike craft always  seem to fly right through the star when engaging enemies.

 

 

As for the star travel you point yourselves at the star when exiting but you leave slip/hype well outside, my bad for quoting it wrong.

Oh yea this would screw the AI right up. We MIGHT be able to give them some sort of affinity for defending resources asteroids (read: planets) in gravity wells and then when it is switched to solar systems they would attempt to protect the 'planet'. I don't know how much the actual actions and tactics of the AI can be manipulated though so it might not work and even if it did this wouldn't fix them not handling the change, it just help calm the storm.

 

The ships in Halo could use the stars to travel around a solar system but there are no examples of it happening normally as all the ships have enough power and speed to travel directly to the planets. There are examples of ships using gravity from various celestial bodies as either a form of protection or in military maneuvers though.


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#33 Defender0

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:19 AM

Star Wars

Star wars hyperdrives are different from slipspace drives. A slipspace drive can work a kilometer above a planet, hyperdrives wont work if they are inside ANY kind of gravity well (which could be hundreds, possibly thousands of kilometers above a planet or star).


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#34 m468

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 09:22 AM

Gravity sling shits were typically only done when a ship needs to get to a safe jump point. now this is only seen with the UNSC. This is because during and before the human covenant war the UNSC has slipspace drives that had an accuracy of +/- hundreds of thousands of kilometers. Jumping directly to the planet could land you inside the core of the planet or inside of a star. Now with more accurate drives exiting slipspace in system is a whole lot less dangerous
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#35 KhevaKins

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:05 AM

Gravity sling shits were typically only done when a ship needs to get to a safe jump point. now this is only seen with the UNSC. This is because during and before the human covenant war the UNSC has slipspace drives that had an accuracy of +/- hundreds of thousands of kilometers. Jumping directly to the planet could land you inside the core of the planet or inside of a star. Now with more accurate drives exiting slipspace in system is a whole lot less dangerous

It was theorized by Cortana that you might actually not be able to come out of slipspace into something. The object and the exiter would both move out of each others way. This is all conjecture from her, however they do exit into a ship debris field and non of the debris got phased into the ship and instead surrounded the ship further increasing the chance that her theory was correct, you can't come out of slipspace inside something.
 

Ascendant Justice winked into existence within the debris field in high orbit around Reach. There was, however, no ultravi-olent explosion as the atoms of the flagship overlapped with the matter of the scrapped ships the Covenant had herded together in space. Either Slipspace jumps prevented such occurrences from happening, shunting the incoming ship to the side like water that flows around a river rock ... or she had borrowed some of the Master Chief's probability-bending good fortune. Hundreds of wrecked ships, human and Covenant alike, tum- bled lifelessly about her, their net trajectories suggesting that As- cendant Justice had just nudged them aside. If she'd had more
 time, she would've designed a set of experiments with drone ships to test out her displacement-luck hypothesis.


But that is mostly just a theory however there are no instances where a ship did explode from exiting inside something.

Contrary to this, in the Forerunner books they predicted incoming slipspace exits and shot things (asteroids) in the way. When the ship exited it was forced back into slipspace by the object or destroyed.
 

So begins the clench. While the re-emerging enemy forces are most vulnerable, still surrounded by a haze of alternate realities, the Falchion orders a carefully pre-positioned series of stabbing harrier attacks. The cloaked harriers engage first not with obvious and traceable beam weapons or projectiles, but entrained local asteroids, delivering them through gravity slings into the emergence field of each arriving enemy vessel.
The asteroids interfere with the collapsing function of each emerging ship; in effect, either forcing them to abandon the transit, or to combine asteroid mass with the ship's.
The result: half of the arriving vessels dematerialize in brilliant flashes, while the other half desperately reposition by a few thousand kilometers. This affords a multi-pronged force of uncloaked harriers opportunity to engage in open beam attacks, swiftly destroying another third.

So in this case there are explosions. However I think because the asteroids are shot into the exiting ships while they are still... exiting... this wouldn't happen regularly, as in if you attempted to exit on top of an asteroid rather than have one shot into you.


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#36 Lavo

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:06 AM

Want to point something out for clarity's sake; my suggestion is purely a visual change, one that will give people the feel of battling across multiple systems and not change gameplay at all whatsoever.


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#37 KhevaKins

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:32 AM

Want to point something out for clarity's sake; my suggestion is purely a visual change, one that will give people the feel of battling across multiple systems and not change gameplay at all whatsoever.

However you forgot to take into account that:
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Also just putting this here because I can't think of a good caption:
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#38 Defender0

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:32 AM

 

...wut?


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#39 KhevaKins

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:40 AM

...wut?

I have a dream...


More specifically a vision of KhevaKins version of the mod just as I am sure each one of you also have ideas to create {your name}s mod.
Lavo said it was mainly going to be a visual change where as most of use have been talking (see: dreaming) about complex, engine changing things.


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#40 JoeKool82185

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 11:52 AM

I haven't played this yet so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I think that it's fine the way it is. A visual change would require a huge change of scale, as stated before. And while I know that this can't and won't be 100% realistic, you don't want frigates that are a third the size of our sun. That would kill the immersion. And many people (such as myself) like the possibility of small scale battles. Sometimes we want to play as the commander of a fleet defending a single system or the colonies of a local star cluster. If I want to fight a war that spans half the galaxy, I'll choose or create a map for that. If the game is crashing because of the size of these maps, THAT'S the issue that has to be addressed. As for the thing about large-scale games taking too long, well yeah if you have only two armies and you put them on opposite sides of a map that consists of two dozen stars, then that's what's going to happen.






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