54 replies to this topic

[Unikraken]

It's not a plot device in the same way Halo is. The structure and nature of Halo is integral to the story being told. The CSO could have had any size or shape other than the one it had and it wouldn't have drawn as much scorn. They LITERALLY used the same model, polygon for polygon, and slightly adjusted the texture from a CAS. If Halo had been another thing the story would have been changed, you could replace the CSO with literally anything else and the whole thing works just fine. While I don't care for the CRS being a downscaled CCS, they AT LEAST made a new model for it and created the RCS armored cruiser to along with it as yet another variation.

[Lord Stark]

Speaking of which, are there any plans to make the RCS-class a capital once the Super-Destroyer becomes a Titan?  It has something called a stasis enfolder system...

 

I mean I am clearly pro-plot device, but I also respect the staff's decision not to put it in.

[SPECTRE]

Mass Effect: 

All Turian ships use the same model, same with Alliance and Asari vessels.

 

Star Wars: 

 

Bad guys--> Triangles

Good guys--> Space dicks

 

And then in the Clone Wars

 

Good Guys--> Triangles

Bad Guys--> Space dicks

 

Star Trek:

Good guys-->Disks

Bad guys--> birds of prey.

Not exactly true, Normandy class frigates look nothing like the alliance cruisers. Some asari ships only have two or three pylons whereas the destiny ascension has 4.

Turian and alliance dreadnoughts have a large barrel shroud too, and are much wider in propertion in comparison to their cruisers.

 

With regards to star wars these were in service with both rebel alliance and the empire.

Spoiler

Clone wars i kinda agree, but what about the lucrehulk and banking clan comms ships?

What about star trek, what about these:

Spoiler

In our western culture all of our ships look alike, but eastern junkers look almost alien to us.

Its nothing to do with diversity, it depends on the culture of ship building. In an alternate timeline all of our ships could look like zepplins or subs.

[Unikraken]

Variation on a theme is vastly different from "Here, we took this ship from the previous game and made it 6 times larger, without changing anything else. Enjoy that."

[SPECTRE]

Even if it had a paint scheme it would make all the difference.

[Lord Stark]

The plot device is a different color.  Its red as I recall. 

 

 

Not exactly true, Normandy class frigates look nothing like the alliance cruisers. Some asari ships only have two or three pylons whereas the destiny ascension has 4.

Turian and alliance dreadnoughts have a large barrel shroud too, and are much wider in propertion in comparison to their cruisers.

 

With regards to star wars these were in service with both rebel alliance and the empire.

Spoiler

Clone wars i kinda agree, but what about the lucrehulk and banking clan comms ships?

What about star trek, what about these:

Spoiler

In our western culture all of our ships look alike, but eastern junkers look almost alien to us.

Its nothing to do with diversity, it depends on the culture of ship building. In an alternate timeline all of our ships could look like zepplins or subs.

 

The Normandy class isn't an Alliance designed though its a joint Turian and alliance project.  The alliance dreadnought basically looks like an upscaled cruiser.  And the only dreadnought of Turian design we know of is the Volus Dreadnought Kwunu which looks exactly like a turian cruiser.

 

http://static3.wikia...Dreadnought.png

http://static1.wikia...leetPalaven.png

 

Odds are because they are a client race the two are similar/ exactly the same.  Furthermore the turian frigate is also shown to have the exact same model.  

 

Lazy?  Sure, but I didn't really mind all that much.

 

And yes I was generalizing.  But the point really was the movies and mainstream material of the verses I mentioned doesn't really have much in ship diversity.

[Dianno5741]

What I love about my logic is that even if somehow it is proven without a doubt that a pro plot device logic argument is so infallible it makes spock look like an amateur, in the end it's not going in the game. Because it's our game and our rules. Dont like it? There's the door. Short of Microsoft and 343i telling us to put it in. Then hell will freeze over twice before I give two fucks about that ship. Also I resent the notion of it not being in on principle. What are you 5? Our CLEAR cut logic and game restrictions outrule the CSOs use. We just happen to not like it either. So we arnt butt hurt about it's technical error. Meaning it's not going in due to logical argument, not just plot device hate.

[Zero]

The CSO is a different color.  Its red as I recall.

No it's not, the CSO is the same base model and texture of the CAS from Halo 3:

 

The only difference is that Halo Reach uses different post-processing effects and a better engine than Halo 3 did. It's odd that they did this, as well, since they had one of their artists make a completely new model and texture for the CAS in Halo Reach that unfortunately only shows up in-game for maybe 3 seconds in a cutscene at the end of Long Night of Solace:

[D4RKST0RM99]

This should settle it-

Spoiler

[Lord Stark]

No it's not, the plot device is the same base model and texture of the CAS from Halo 3:

[snip]

 

The only difference is that Halo Reach uses different post-processing effects and a better engine than Halo 3 did. It's odd that they did this, as well, since they had one of their artists make a completely new model and texture for the CAS in Halo Reach that unfortunately only shows up in-game for maybe 3 seconds in a cutscene at the end of Long Night of Solace:

[snip]

Ahhh yes that's what it was.  It was giant and blue.  I think it looks pretty. 

@

D4RKST0RM99

That is hilarious.

Edited by sloosecannon, 21 January 2014 - 03:02 PM.
Please do not post huge images in quotes.

[SPECTRE]

I love the fact that chips did this to attempt to get the kraken to eat some souls to get better.

Instead we ended up with this.

[Moustachio86]

This sould settle it-

Spoiler

A proper guffaw emanated from my chops at that.

[D4RKST0RM99]

A proper guffaw emanated from my chops at that.

yeah the actual location of the plot device is around 3-4 gravity wells away

lets put this into perspective-

 

CAS  Assault carrier 5.346km

UNSC Infinity 5.694km

plot device Super Carrier 28.960km

Fortress class 100km

Mantle's Approach (height) 371.4km

 

I'd consider M'sA the exception to the mod (with a much reduced size of course) because their are no other unique and well explored Forerunner capital ships to use unlike the Covenant's wide selection.

[Death]

Oh I don't even want to repeat myself so I'll just link to topics with rather recent addressments.

 

http://www.sinsofthe...switched/page-4

 

http://www.sinsofthe...mod/#entry26894

 

A prime thing that bugs me is when people use its size as an argument...makes no sense when you are sticking Mantle's Approach in the game.  I know Dianno said they might just downsize it (or will do so) to make it work and so long as you acknowledge that you are deliberately deviating from canon then that is perfectly acceptable as far as I am concerned.  Still...disparity abound.

 

This should settle it-

Spoiler

This is an exaggeration right?  You'll have to forgive me since I have no sense of humor.

[Moustachio86]

As someone has said in the other thread, the Mantle's Approach is slightly different due to the lack of Forerunner ships displayed in game. The covenant have plenty. It's not just the size thing, it's just that's probably the most practical, graspable reason.

The image isn't far off, it's the gravity well size that's I think the least accurate. A Paris frigate is 500m long and the plot device is near enough 29km, that makes it 58 times longer than a regular Paris. It's 5 times longer than a CAS. It is HUGE. As SPECTRE said, the thing wouldn't be able to move in grav wells. It would dwarf the titans from vanilla. It just isn't feasible.

[Zero]

Ahhh yes that's what it was.  It was giant and blue.  I think it looks pretty. 

Well no, again, the CSO is silver like the assault carrier in Halo 2/3. However, the texture for the assault carrier in the Reach cutscene is blue.

[Death]

As someone has said in the other thread, the Mantle's Approach is slightly different due to the lack of Forerunner ships displayed in game. The covenant have plenty. It's not just the size thing, it's just that's probably the most practical, graspable reason.

The image isn't far off, it's the gravity well size that's I think the least accurate. A Paris frigate is 500m long and the plot device is near enough 29km, that makes it 58 times longer than a regular Paris. It's 5 times longer than a CAS. It is HUGE. As SPECTRE said, the thing wouldn't be able to move in grav wells. It would dwarf the titans from vanilla. It just isn't feasible.

 

That would make Mantle's Approach far far larger than the plot device in that depiction then, not to mention other forerunner ships while lesser, still significant in size.  I would point to how titans are compared to capitals in vanilla Rebellion, and other mods that use such large ships.  I suppose the only way to make it work in this case is to downsize all other ships to a sufficient degree, though I don't know how well that would go over considering the hostility.

[Zero]

That would make Mantle's Approach far far larger than the CSO in that depiction then, not to mention other forerunner ships while lesser, still significant in size.  I would point to how titans are compared to capitals in vanilla Rebellion, and other mods that use such large ships.  I suppose the only way to make it work in this case is to downsize all other ships to a sufficient degree, though I don't know how well that would go over considering the hostility.

Or simply leave out the CSO and leave Covenant/UNSC true size and then just scale down the Forerunners for theatrical,

[Death]

Or simply leave out the plot device and leave Covenant/UNSC true size and then just scale down the Forerunners for theatrical,

That is what I assume was going to happen.  I just hope the forerunner ships are just a bit bigger than the other faction's ships at the very least.

[Rovert10]

The usage of scale as an argument is one I promptly went ahead and squashed as it's a rehashed one that bares no actual merit within the SoaSE engine.

 

However the idea of the plot device being the upsized CAS is still an issue. Traditionally these "Super Ships" have something unique about their designs. The Executor Class Dreadnought is distinguishable from the ISDs. The Mantle's Approach is distinguishable from the rest of the Forerunner fleet. The UNSC Infinity is distinguishable from the rest of the UNSC Fleet.

 

However the plot device, if nothing was there to give a comparison as to the scaling than it would just look like a CAS.

Though it can be said about the CRS vs the CCS. If nothing was there to give a sense of scale then you wouldn't be able to determine which is which.

Then again the plot device holds the "Super Ship" status not some piss frigate nobody gives a fuck about.