82 replies to this topic

[MasterOfShips]

Both empires are at full strength (again, minus the Halo Array for the Forerunners). Now have at it.

Edit: For good measure, let's throw out the Composer too.

You'll also find some background info below.

Ancient Human Technology

Source: http://www.halopedia...an_civilization

"Prior to the dismantling of their civilization, humanity had reached Tier 1 on the Forerunner technological achievement scale, making them nearly technological equals of the Forerunners. This was largely thanks to the efforts of Yprin Yprikushma, who encouraged humanity to study Forerunner technologies they had encountered in their early conflicts with Forerunners.^[1]

Despite this, humanity's understanding of slipspace technology, particularly in the area of causal reconciliation, was inferior to that of the Forerunners who were able to use their superior understanding of slipspace to an advantage by clogging the humans' slipspace channels and slowing down their interstellar travel.^[29]

However, the Didact indicated at one point, humanity with the help of the San 'Shyuum had developed offensive military technologies that Didact's warriors had no effective defense against and enabled them to compensate against the overwhelming numbers of the Forerunner military.^[30]

It is known that humans of this time used artificial intelligence constructs.^[1] On Charum Hakkor, the humans built vast constructs supported by the Precursor structures; cities stretching to orbit along orbital arches, described by Bornstellar Makes Eternal Lasting as resembling ivy growing on great trees. In addition, they built energy towers and defense platforms operating at geosynchronous orbit and equigravitation,^[31] linked by virtually unbreakable Precursor unbending filaments.^[32]

It is known that humanity and Forerunners infantry shared many similar military technologies, including advanced battle armor and energy-based weapons. Human warships were capable of high intensity energy streams capable of destroying large shielded Forerunner ships in single hits and also sterilizing entire Flood infected worlds.^[27]"

SIze of each Empire

Ancient Humanity

Source: http://www.halopedia...an_civilization

"By approximately 150,000 BCE, humanity had achieved a considerable level of technological sophistication, achieving interstellar travel and colonizing planets along the Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy becoming a major political and military power rivaling the Forerunners."

Forerunners

Source: http://www.halopedia.org/Ecumene

"The ecumene is the translated name for the Forerunner empire which existed over 100,000 years ago. It stretched across the galaxy and consisted of three million habitable planets.^[1] The political center of this empire was known as the Capital, a massive structure containing multiple cities."

Human losses during the Human Flood War

Source: http://www.halopedia...Human-Flood_war

"The Human-Flood war ultimately lead to the downfall of early mankind. Responding to the threat of the Flood, Humanity sought to buy time by conquering new worlds and species to replace those lost. This desperate aggression, combined with humanity's policy of immediate sterilization of any worlds infected by the Flood led them into a separate war with the Forerunners. While human forces were capable of dealing with the Forerunners on equal footing, the total forces they could commit were never enough to ensure victory. However, whether through sacrifice, technology, or willful retreat on the part of the Flood, humanity was successful in managing the threat of the Flood for a time."

[Defender0]

to be honest, without the flood or halo rings, i think humans vs forerunners would be a stalemate in terms of stats, and the deciding factor would be who is in command and what strategies are being used. you are looking at 2 very similar factions, and putting them against each other, so deciding a victor would be pretty hard to do

[MasterOfShips]

It really is a tough question, which is precisely why I'm asking. If you had to choose one though, who would it be?

[Defender0]

Precisely why I'm asking. If you had to choose one though, who would it be?

i would go for forerunners, because of two things: sentinels and AI. the forerunners could have unmanned ships entirely run by these two, while humanity couldnt as far as i know.

As a disclaimer, i would like to mention that i am very unfamiliar with ancient humanities technology other than the fact that it is very similar to the forerunners.

[MasterOfShips]

i would go for forerunners, because of two things: sentinels and AI. the forerunners could have unmanned ships entirely run by these two, while humanity couldnt as far as i know.

As a disclaimer, i would like to mention that i am very unfamiliar with ancient humanities technology other than the fact that it is very similar to the forerunners.

I'm giving the edge to the Forerunners as well, but only because their empire consisted of "three million habitable planets". Jeebus.

Although our ancestors might've pulled off a victory if they were able to knock the Forerunners out of it early on. The odds would be slim, but with a series of major tactical victories, we could force them to sue for peace. Otherwise, the Forerunners would win through sheer attrition, TEC style.

Anyway you're right about Ancient Human tech. A lot of it was based off of Foreruner technology so it was very similar. However, the majority of their civilization was eventually built using old Precursor tech. An example would be unbending filaments, which quote,

"were a type of Precursor construction. It was noted that they could link entire worlds and systems, although the details and principles behind this are unknown. Like most Precursor technology, they were also virtually indestructible.^[1] As they were based on the principle of neural physics,^[2] they were susceptible to the Halo Array's pulse; all Precursor structures on Charum Hakkor were destroyed when a Halo was test-fired nearby.^[1]
Prehistoric humans used unbending filaments to link their orbital defenses surrounding their capital Charum Hakkor.^[3]"

[MasterOfShips]

The humans.

I read somewhere the only reason they fell was due to two fronts, only one and they would have had a much better chance.
I'll look up where I found that.

Here.
Humanity had been forced to deploy the majority of their military against the Flood, sparing comparatively little to fight the Forerunners. By the time the Flood had been defeated, the human military was exhausted, and they did not have enough resources to put up a significant threat to the Forerunners.

Exactly. And even after losing so much against the Flood, humanity still mananged to hold the Forerunners off for over a thousand years. Who knows what could've happened if humanity was at full strength. With the right tactics, a few victories here and there, and a well placed rebellion amongst the Forerunner client races, humanity may well have won.

[m468]

I'd say Humanity for the same reason as .

[Defender0]

im only siding with forerunners because im unfamiliar with ancient humanity, but i can understand where this is coming from

[gotterdammung]

Id go with humanity on this one, humanity never had a chance to bring their full strength to bear against the Forerunners as the majority of their forces were deployed to combat the Flood. Without this second front, Humanity would have been much better positioned for a war with the Forerunners. It is important to remember that humanity also had to sacrifice around a third of it's population in an ultimately failed attempt to cure the Flood.

[Bornstellaris]

It is important to remember that humanity also had to sacrifice around a third of it's population in an ultimately failed attempt to cure the Flood.

I'm sorry but why does everyone think that the ancient humans failed in there attempts to destroy the flood, read the book Halo Cryptum, it's all in there and it's a very good book. The ancient humans did infact drive the flood out if the galaxy, the story is that the flood arrived in ships that originated outside this galaxy, they landed in human and San'Shyuum worlds. At first it infected a type if dog and was even pleasant at first, after years it mutated into the flood we know and hate today. The humans were pushed to unexcelled brilliance, they found a cure, the idea was to fight fire with fire by infecting 1/3 of their entire population with a set of destructive genes programmed to ravage the flood. The flood left the galaxy and the humans were severely weakened and needed new worlds as the ones they had were at the brink of destruction, the took new worlds and made them their own, the forerunners stepped in.

[m468]

Hence weakening them to the point of loosing to the Forunners.

[Bornstellaris]

Ancient humanity would have put up a fight to the forerunners but in the end the foreurunners would have won

[Zero]

The Forerunners would have lost because even in the terminals for Halo 4, the Didact and the Librarian mentioned that without the flood, the humans would have steam rolled on them.

[Bornstellaris]

You do know makimg statements with no proof just make you look silly, right?

If you are meaning my statement read pages 266 - 275 of the book Halo: Cryptum

[Unikraken]

Humanity. Everyone else has made good points as to why. We only lost because of the two front war.

[KhevaKins]

Forerunner would have won. The humans would win isolated victories but say the forerunners set up another Maginot Sphere like they did against the flood. Then the forerunners with there 3 million systems could simply out 'spend'/'build' the humans with more and more ships.

[KhevaKins]

I'm sorry but why does everyone think that the ancient humans failed in there attempts to destroy the flood, read the book Halo Cryptum, it's all in there and it's a very good book. The ancient humans did infact drive the flood out if the galaxy, the story is that the flood arrived in ships that originated outside this galaxy, they landed in human and San'Shyuum worlds. At first it infected a type if dog and was even pleasant at first, after years it mutated into the flood we know and hate today. The humans were pushed to unexcelled brilliance, they found a cure, the idea was to fight fire with fire by infecting 1/3 of their entire population with a set of destructive genes programmed to ravage the flood. The flood left the galaxy and the humans were severely weakened and needed new worlds as the ones they had were at the brink of destruction, the took new worlds and made them their own, the forerunners stepped in.

It is unclear heather or not the cure actually did anything. The flood did retreat but the reason is unclear. The wiki says "Unbeknownst to the humans, they had not actually found a cure, but the Flood had chosen not to infect the humans because the humans had passed the 'test' to attain the Mantle - in the process of stopping the Flood, the humans had thrown a third of their population against them." The Precursors made the flood to take care of the rebellious Forerunners (Who eradicated the precursors)and to test whether or nor humanity would be willing to do what was needed to uphold the Mantle. They did by sacrificing themselves in hopes of stopping the flood.