82 replies to this topic

[Bornstellaris]

As I was saying, both forerunners and the anicnet humans had weapons of similar design and firepower but forerunners had more ships.

[Rovert10]

Wouldn't that just be zerg rushing then. If you had all of those Fortress Class Vessels in one spot?

Hmm... the impression I am getting is that Humans would kill like a lot more Forerunner vessels per Human ship lost from the article the OP was citing.

[Defender0]

Wouldn't that just be zerg rushing then. If you had all of those Fortress Class Vessels in one spot?

a smart commander would spread those ships out, apply pressure everywhere.

[Bornstellaris]

Wouldn't that just be zerg rushing then. If you had all of those Fortress Class Vessels in one spot?

Supreme Firepower!

[Rovert10]

a smart commander would spread those ships out, apply pressure everywhere.

That's what they said about tanks, spread out and apply pressure.
Germans decided to spearhead instead. Guess who won?

If only several fortress class vessels wouldn't the Humans be able to respond well enough to at least halt such a spread out advance like that. I mean the UNSC at the moment has tha NOVA planetbuster bomb as it is. And that's the UNSC in present times to be able to damage and destroy Forerunner Vessels with the right strategy. Granted they couldn't take on a fleet of them. And had to focus on one.
At least what you mean by spread out, you mean multiple systems. A single system is till Zerg Rushing/Spearheading that one system no matter how spread out they might be in that one system with such a large fleet.

[Defender0]

Germans decided to spearhead instead. Guess who won?

The germans used blitzkrieg, which was a massive offensive rush involving both air and ground attacks. They also attacked polland with this strategy, which was not prepared for that kind of assault. So.. please... come up with a more fitting response.

Also, tanks work way differently compared to a starship such as a Fortress vessel, due to the number of weapons on board the ship. A tank only has one main cannon, a Fortress vessel has room for hundreds, if not thousands, of main cannons, each of which would be turreted. This is why a spread out attack would work compared to spreading out an army of tanks.

[Rovert10]

Yet it worked against the equally advanced French and British. What I am getting at is this. Supposibly that Humans and Forerunners had the same technology basis. Thus I assume Humans could as well bring a Fortress class vessel into action themselves.

Now if this was the case and you just spread out Fortress class vessels. Wouldn't humans be able to do the same with the added benefit of having entrenched positions? Don't forget the added possiblity that Human worlds could be entrenched enough to stop a single Fortress ship and fleet.

The point is that you would have to spearhead the assualt with such force if you were to break the Ancient Human defence.

[Defender0]

is there any record of ancient humanity having similarly sized vessels?

[Rovert10]

Is there much record of Ancient Humanity at all? Most of their stuff was destroyed or absorbed by Forerunners. Thus I am speculating what I believe is most probable.

[Defender0]

Is there much record of Ancient Humanity at all? Most of their stuff was destroyed or absorbed by Forerunners. Thus I am speculating what I believe is most probable.

http://www.halopedia...an_civilization

theres definitely a record of them, but what i am asking you is something no one knows, and theres a reason for it. You are ASSUMING that ancient humanity has the same ships as forerunners. Their fleet could have an entirely different composition, much like the UNSC vs the Covenant. Ancient Humanity could have hundreds more ships that are far smaller than the forerunner ships for all we know.

[Rovert10]

Yes I've read it.

And this was mostly a turning point here for me.

However, the Didact indicated at one point, humanity with the help of the San 'Shyuum had developed offensive military technologies that Didact's warriors had no effective defense against and enabled them to compensate against the overwhelming numbers of the Forerunner military

Thus military technology is not necessarily equal then and if they had no effective defense. Then, Fortress ships would be like giant pieces of paper.

[Defender0]

Thus military technology is not necessarily equal then and if they had no effective defense. Then, Fortress ships would be like giant pieces of paper.

You know you are kind of getting off subject here, right?

a smart commander would spread those ships out, apply pressure everywhere.

This was my point, that the fortress vessels would be better off spread out, instead of clustered together in a tight group. This is mostly to allow for mobility as well as to prevent any AoE attacks from destroyed a large group of these vessels at once, much in the same way you would attempt to spread out your ships in the mod to mitigate a shiva nuke

[Rovert10]

You know you are kind of getting off subject here, right?




This was my point, that the fortress vessels would be better off spread out, instead of clustered together in a tight group. This is mostly to allow for mobility as well as to prevent any AoE attacks from destroyed a large group of these vessels at once, much in the same way you would attempt to spread out your ships in the mod to mitigate a shiva nuke

I don't understand how that was off subject. Military technology advantages seemed to be on subject on how the Humans would be able to win against Forerunner assualts with the philosophy that offence is the best defense that could also be a response against the Fortress Class Vessels.

Even then if a ship is focused fired, it would still be destroyed due to what I supposed superior weapons capibilities on the Human side while taking minimal loses to go on to the next ship especially since they would have the advantage of being inside an entrenched position.

Even the largest of ships can't break through if simply left spread out trying to pick off the enemy fleets laying around to order to try and squeeze them in. Look at Star Wars and the Executor Class. It is the largest ship in the Battle of Endor yet since it was ordered to have the fleet just spread out to stop the Rebel escape, it just got focused fire and blown to pieces. Albiet the Rebels were on the offensive at this time thus the Empire had defensive advantage here. If the Empire decided to rush in at the moment, then the Rebels would have been totally screwed over.
Granted that Imperial leadership wasn't at its finest at this moment. It ain't no Thrawn here.

All in all this is purely speculative until we get more solid info on the capibilities of the Ancient Humans compared to Forerunners. I am currently interpreting that Humans are more capable is terms of its military at the moment.

[sloosecannon]

While human forces were capable of dealing with the Forerunners on equal footing, the total forces they could commit were never enough to ensure victory.
http://www.halopedia...Human-Flood_war

Question answered

[MasterOfShips]

While human forces were capable of dealing with the Forerunners on equal footing, the total forces they could commit were never enough to ensure victory.
http://www.halopedia...Human-Flood_war

Question answered

Remember, humanity was essentially fighting the Flood at the same time, leaving their forces stretched extremely thin. Regardless, humanity managed to hold off the Forerunners for over a thousand years. And in this scenario, the Flood infestation never happened so humanity could commit all of their forces towards fighting the Forerunners. With the full might of their military behind them, I believe that humanity would've stood a much better chance.

Also, humanity incorporated a ton of Precursor tech into their defenses. Known as "unbending filaments", the Halo wiki describes this material as "virtually indestructible", and can only be destroyed by the Halo Array. Again, remember the Halo Array is off limits in this scenario as well.

So with humanity's full military might at their disposal, and a network of virtually indestructible defenses, I believe humanity could've won by playing it smart and fighting a mostly defensive war.

Keep your main forces back while letting the Forerunners bleed themselves dry trying to take system after system. Meanwhile, the Forerunners will stretch their supply lines thin while they get deeper and deeper into human territory. Keep up the pressure with hit and run attacks and encourage the various client races of the Forerunners to rebel. Eventually, the Forerunner war machine will stall and use this opportunity to inflict a decisive victory.

Rinse and repeat until you've broken their appetite for war. Once that happens, force them to the negotiating table and dictate a new peace on your own terms. And thus, the golden age of humanity shall begin.

[m468]

That's what they said about tanks, spread out and apply pressure.
Germans decided to spearhead instead. Guess who won?

I'm sorry but I have to comment....
The Germans were able to do what they did in their blitzkrieg across France for several reasons.
1. Allied plan of battle based off the traditional method of attack b Germany, this plan of battle would have likely worked if it were not for the next event...
2. A German light aircraft crashed inside allied territory after losing its way, this plane carried a copy of the entire German battle plan for the invasion.
3. The crash caused Britain and France to pull more units away from the Maginot Line (which was seemingly impervious to attack from the front).
4 The German High Command realized that their planned attack was compromised and went with the only alternative attack through an area that even they thought was impassable to tanks... the Ardennes.
5. The main advantage the Germans had in direct battle was the two way radio allowed tank u it's to coordinate on the tactical level thus a massive advantage... Other than that the Allies had the better tanks...

[Bornstellaris]

Although the ancient humans used precursor technology it states that it was used to link their orbital defence guns, it never states that they were made out of it.

[Defender0]

Even the largest of ships can't break through if simply left spread out trying to pick off the enemy fleets laying around to order to try and squeeze them in. Look at Star Wars and the Executor Class. It is the largest ship in the Battle of Endor yet since it was ordered to have the fleet just spread out to stop the Rebel escape, it just got focused fire and blown to pieces. Albiet the Rebels were on the offensive at this time thus the Empire had defensive advantage here. If the Empire decided to rush in at the moment, then the Rebels would have been totally screwed over.

Alright, time to put on my star wars nerd cap

[nerd rage]
This is star wars and the galactic empire. Their ship crews were trained to fight the rebels in a certain way, IE long range engagement. When the rebels went point blank with them, the Imperial fleet was caught off guard, enabling the rebels to turn the tide of the battle slightly. Also, the rebels were extremely lucky when they took out the executor. That thing would have wiped out the rebel fleet otherwise.

Also, the imperial plan at the battle of endor was to have the death star open fire with its superlaser, destroying one rebel ship at a time. Once the rebel fleet closed with the Imperial fleet, friendly fire became an issue and the superlaser was not fired.

In laymans terms, the entire imperial plan was shot to hell by luck and good tactics.
[/nerd rage]

[m468]

Wasn't the Executor taken out by an A-wing smacking into its bridge after a portion of its shield was taken down...?

[Defender0]

Wasn't the Executor taken out by an A-wing smacking into its bridge after a portion of its shield was taken down...?

Yes, but the rebels were extremely lucky with that. What basically happenedwas some Y-Wings got in a few shots on the bridge deflector shield generator, and the A-Wing that crashed into the bridge was hit by enemy turbolaser fire. In all other situations, that would be enough to destroy the fighter outright, but the thing managed to maintain structural stability, and made a one in a million crash landing into the bridge of the Executor.

Like i said, LOTS of luck was involved.