152 replies to this topic

[SPECTRE]

How about this, Black Hawk Down. Where the mob charged those two snipers in the crash site. Guess what? It hit the point where they ran low on ammo and literally for each one killed another 10 charged forth. YES, there are cases where it doesn't happen but just the same there are cases where IT DOES HAPPEN. Your example, what was the situation? How well equipped were the 30 guys? How good of a defensive location? How was the enemy quiepped, and did they have to approach through a chokepoint? Lots of factors for a ground battle but in space it's all null.

 

People seem to be making the error of comparing war era battlecruisers to post-war era light cruisers. The two types of ships already are different in durability and firepower, but the CCS class ships are fully functional, with shields and all. Those engineers IMPROVED the systems, they did not install Forerunner tech. To quote "Only the engines are Forerunner, the rest is UNSC". The Shields exist yes, and the engineers may have improved them/tweaked them, but they are NOT Forerunner shields.

Close quarters combat happens that way, space is (supposedly) infinite, they have room to run. Numbers don't work in open spaces.

The shields Are of forerunner design.

[Cmdr Daefaron]

Close quarters combat happens that way, space is (supposedly) infinite, they have room to run. Numbers don't work in open spaces.

The shields Are of forerunner design.

Evidence? Anything from 343 supporting that the shields are Forerunner shields?

 

Also, room to run doesn't mean anything when you have an assault carrier infront of your ship and 20 battlecruisers around your rear section pounding you to pieces. Running simply means you can't fire back while they can. And every second it runs, that's another ship not destroyed. Another ship assaulting the already crumbling defenses. Yes, Infinity would put a major hurt out. But it would be overwhelmed. It is not immune to damage. Recall how frantic Del Rio was to get the Infinity back to friendly space when they had no shields. Covenant weapons are GREAT against shields, UNSC ones not so much. So if they aren't in a MAC cannon arc, they don't have as much to worry about.

 

Smaller numbers beating larger ones works in Chokepoints. Because you can funnel the targets into a killzone. If you had 30 guys against thousands, and it was... let's say an open plain or forest, they'd not last. It's why the concept of chokepoints exists as I recall. You funnel your enemies into a single (or handful) of approaches. Each approach being heavily fortified and thus focusing your firepower into it. Without the chokepoint, they swarm against you. They hammer at sections of the defensive line and break through, because your firepower/forces are spread out. Sins of a Solar empire shows this. If a person splits their fleets among their borders, a single, massive attacking fleet will steamroll through defenses all the way to the heart of the enemy. I did it as UNSC vs Covenant. I've done it in base Sins and other mods.

[SPECTRE]

Evidence? Anything from 343 supporting that the shields are Forerunner shields?

 

Also, room to run doesn't mean anything when you have an assault carrier infront of your ship and 20 battlecruisers around your rear section pounding you to pieces. Running simply means you can't fire back while they can. And every second it runs, that's another ship not destroyed. Another ship assaulting the already crumbling defenses. Yes, Infinity would put a major hurt out. But it would be overwhelmed. It is not immune to damage. Recall how frantic Del Rio was to get the Infinity back to friendly space when they had no shields. Covenant weapons are GREAT against shields, UNSC ones not so much. So if they aren't in a MAC cannon arc, they don't have as much to worry about.

 

Smaller numbers beating larger ones works in Chokepoints. Because you can funnel the targets into a killzone. If you had 30 guys against thousands, and it was... let's say an open plain or forest, they'd not last. It's why the concept of chokepoints exists as I recall. You funnel your enemies into a single (or handful) of approaches. Each approach being heavily fortified and thus focusing your firepower into it. Without the chokepoint, they swarm against you. They hammer at sections of the defensive line and break through, because your firepower/forces are spread out. Sins of a Solar empire shows this. If a person splits their fleets among their borders, a single, massive attacking fleet will steamroll through defenses all the way to the heart of the enemy. I did it as UNSC vs Covenant. I've done it in base Sins and other mods.

Thursday war, huragok from trevelyan, filled with forerunner knowledge got to work retrofitting infinity.

I really don't think you get the engagement distances that happened in halo, hundreds to thousands of KM.

You can't funnel two Snipers into an engagement zone can you? Escape and evasion.

[Cmdr Daefaron]

Thursday war, huragok from trevelyan, filled with forerunner knowledge got to work retrofitting infinity.

I really don't think you get the engagement distances that happened in halo, hundreds to thousands of KM.

You can't funnel two Snipers into an engagement zone can you? Escape and evasion.

 

Again, explicit proof the shields are Forerunner level? They buffed stuff up, they didn't install forerunner shit. Spartan ops poins out the ONLY Forerunner tech on the ship was the slipspace drive.

 

I don't think you get slipspace. The Covenant can do a short range jump and land 20 battlecruisers right behind Infinity in short range, and open up with weapons. It can't hide, and the Covenant have the means to easily swarm it. They had hunter-kill ships intercepting UNSC ships as they approached Reach. They can pop several up close to Infinity. And while it's doing 'hit and runs' the Covenant are slaughtering the orbital defenses, the ground forces. Eventually, the Infinity will die.

 

So yeah, Reach still falls, regardless of where the Infinity posts itself. The difference is merely that more Covenant die in the process.

[SPECTRE]

Again, explicit proof the shields are Forerunner level? They buffed stuff up, they didn't install forerunner shit. Spartan ops poins out the ONLY Forerunner tech on the ship was the slipspace drive.

 

I don't think you get slipspace. The Covenant can do a short range jump and land 20 battlecruisers right behind Infinity in short range, and open up with weapons. It can't hide, and the Covenant have the means to easily swarm it. They had hunter-kill ships intercepting UNSC ships as they approached Reach. They can pop several up close to Infinity. And while it's doing 'hit and runs' the Covenant are slaughtering the orbital defenses, the ground forces. Eventually, the Infinity will die.

 

So yeah, Reach still falls, regardless of where the Infinity posts itself. The difference is merely that more Covenant die in the process.

I don't think you get what i'm getting at, infinity could just run. You also forget that cov weapons take time to charge, then cooldown. all them meantime they're sitting ducks. I think the charge time has been stated from 3 secs on smaller plasma up to 60 seconds.

[D4RKST0RM99]

Again, explicit proof the shields are Forerunner level? They buffed stuff up, they didn't install forerunner shit. Spartan ops poins out the ONLY Forerunner tech on the ship was the slipspace drive.

 

I don't think you get slipspace. The Covenant can do a short range jump and land 20 battlecruisers right behind Infinity in short range, and open up with weapons. It can't hide, and the Covenant have the means to easily swarm it. They had hunter-kill ships intercepting UNSC ships as they approached Reach. They can pop several up close to Infinity. And while it's doing 'hit and runs' the Covenant are slaughtering the orbital defenses, the ground forces. Eventually, the Infinity will die.

 

So yeah, Reach still falls, regardless of where the Infinity posts itself. The difference is merely that more Covenant die in the process.

If you can remember from the earlier books- especially fall of reach, MC and his spartans recovered jackal shield gauntlets during their first Covenant engagement, through reverse engineering the UNSC came up with the human equivailent shield technology, one of the fruits of this labor was the MARK V Mjolnir armor system (dosen't use covenant tech), with sheild capabilities far in excess of those used by the covenant, remember the Covenant rely completly on technological breakthroughs from recovered Forerunner relics- they are immitative not innovative so the tech they reproduced would be a mere shadow of the original designs.

The UNSC on the other hand are the complete opposite, the only thing against their technological advancements was time witch was cut far short when Earth was invaded, if they had been allowed to progress for another say 5-10 years with the aid of the recovered Ascendant Justice's slip drive amongst the other innovations in progress the UNSC would have been allowed to surpass the Covenant.

 

If you missed it their was more than one class of covenant cruiser in the Spartan Ops intro, the ship class that the Infinity rams is seen again in one of the last cutscenes "Exodus"

Spoiler

The larger ship is the RCS Cruiser at 2km (CCS Class is 1.8 km) with the smaller 300m light cruisers escorting it. This is also proved at the beginning of Halo 4 were MC uses one of the Dawn's remaining shp to ship missles to take out a light cruiser, doubtful  that would have worked against an RCS Cruiser.

[Cmdr Daefaron]

If you can remember from the earlier books- especially fall of reach, MC and his spartans recovered jackal shield gauntlets during their first Covenant engagement, through reverse engineering the UNSC came up with the human equivailent shield technology, one of the fruits of this labor was the MARK V Mjolnir armor system (dosen't use covenant tech), with sheild capabilities far in excess of those used by the covenant, remember the Covenant rely completly on technological breakthroughs from recovered Forerunner relics- they are immitative not innovative so the tech they reproduced would be a mere shadow of the original designs.

The UNSC on the other hand are the complete opposite, the only thing against their technological advancements was time witch was cut far short when Earth was invaded, if they had been allowed to progress for another say 5-10 years with the aid of the recovered Ascendant Justice's slip drive amongst the other innovations in progress the UNSC would have been allowed to surpass the Covenant.

 

If you missed it their was more than one class of covenant cruiser in the Spartan Ops intro, the ship class that the Infinity rams is seen again in one of the last cutscenes "Exodus"

Spoiler

The larger ship is the RCS Cruiser at 2km (CCS Class is 1.8 km) with the smaller 300m light cruisers escorting it. This is also proved at the beginning of Halo 4 were MC uses one of the Dawn's remaining shp to ship missles to take out a light cruiser, doubtful  that would have worked against an RCS Cruiser.

 

Yes, I know(Though MJOLNIR shields were not massively better then Covenant elite shields. Better, but not majorly). But there is nothing about the shield strength of Infinity. Ramming that cruiser in the intro may have red-lined the shields, or barely been noticed. We REALLY don't know. It feels to me that people keep using the Infinity and escorts stomping tiny light cruisers as proof it'd stomp a formation of height of the war battlecruisers. I'm sorry but I don't buy that at all. Nor do I buy the Infinity shielding being on par with Forerunner ship shield tstrnegth. Friends have told me Forerunner shields are more like hard light projections.. here is the quote

Nothing was ever said about its shields being Forerunner technology and as some interpretations suggest Forerunner shields were actually hard light barriers and not energy shields like shown in the game, the shields most probably are reverse engineered from the Covenant like all UNSC shield tech.

 

Now, being perhaps more efficient then Covenant shields? I could buy that. EASILY. But On par with Forerunner ship shields? Ha, no sorry mate.

 

 

Simply put, people need to stop clinging to Infinity + Escorts destroying a handful of light cruisers (The CCS class/RCS class whatnot was rammed, I don't count it as being destroyed by the ship weapons) as if that proves Infinity can handle a decent number of fully armed and shielded war era battlecruisers. In the situation of the topic it would put a hurt out. But it would die eventually. If it "hit" a large target and then ran from pursuit of battlecruisers, that's precious minutes being wasted that the Covenant are using to destroy MORE UNSC shit.

[D4RKST0RM99]

Yes, I know(Though MJOLNIR shields were not massively better then Covenant elite shields. Better, but not majorly). But there is nothing about the shield strength of Infinity. Ramming that cruiser in the intro may have red-lined the shields, or barely been noticed. We REALLY don't know. It feels to me that people keep using the Infinity and escorts stomping tiny light cruisers as proof it'd stomp a formation of height of the war battlecruisers. I'm sorry but I don't buy that at all. Nor do I buy the Infinity shielding being on par with Forerunner ship shield tstrnegth. Friends have told me Forerunner shields are more like hard light projections.. here is the quote

 

 

Now, being perhaps more efficient then Covenant shields? I could buy that. EASILY. But On par with Forerunner ship shields? Ha, no sorry mate.

 

 

Simply put, people need to stop clinging to Infinity + Escorts destroying a handful of light cruisers (The CCS class/RCS class whatnot was rammed, I don't count it as being destroyed by the ship weapons) as if that proves Infinity can handle a decent number of fully armed and shielded war era battlecruisers. In the situation of the topic it would put a hurt out. But it would die eventually. If it "hit" a large target and then ran from pursuit of battlecruisers, that's precious minutes being wasted that the Covenant are using to destroy MORE UNSC shit.

Considering Silentium and the structure of Halo it's not just hard light that makes Forerunner ships and structures so invulnerable with stasis fields that allows them to withstand considerable punishment but require trumendous ammounts of power to run.

Also until Kilo 5 is finished we wont know how the covenant went from a fragmented faction that were incapable of maintaining the ships they had let alone build new ones then to go to their position of power they have in Halo 4 able to field an assault carrier with multiple cruiser classes, from the Elites position after Thurday War they had nothing outside of their warrior class- everything else was handled by the other members of the covenant, it was discovered their were worlds on the fringes of the covenant empire still capable of building ships but were isolated and forgotten from all they pollitical changes that occured from Halo 2 and 3.

[David0425]

I'm sure Jul mdama secretly goes to these forgotten covenant shipyards and worlds.and through religious motivation, he gained support of the sangheili and other species. Thus he has an army, fleet, and supplies to rage a war

[Lord Stark]

Thursday war, huragok from trevelyan, filled with forerunner knowledge got to work retrofitting infinity.

I really don't think you get the engagement distances that happened in halo, hundreds to thousands of KM.

You can't funnel two Snipers into an engagement zone can you? Escape and evasion.

Only Infinity's engines are of forerunner design.

Considering Silentium and the structure of Halo it's not just hard light that makes Forerunner ships and structures so invulnerable with stasis fields that allows them to withstand considerable punishment but require trumendous ammounts of power to run.

Also until Kilo 5 is finished we wont know how the covenant went from a fragmented faction that were incapable of maintaining the ships they had let alone build new ones then to go to their position of power they have in Halo 4 able to field an assault carrier with multiple cruiser classes, from the Elites position after Thurday War they had nothing outside of their warrior class- everything else was handled by the other members of the covenant, it was discovered their were worlds on the fringes of the covenant empire still capable of building ships but were isolated and forgotten from all they pollitical changes that occured from Halo 2 and 3.

 

Uhhh nope.  Jul's fleet is explained in the eleventh hour reports.

[SPECTRE]

Only Infinity's engines are of forerunner design.

 

Uhhh nope.  Jul's fleet is explained in the eleventh hour reports.

Well bit of a lie, Forerunner tech was integrated into all sorts of things by 2558. 

[Zero]

Well bit of a lie, Forerunner tech was integrated into all sorts of things by 2558. 

There is no proof of this. All that's stated is that captured engineers were used to boost output from existing tech. The only Forerunner tech in the UNSC arsenal is the Infinity's slipspace drive.

[Aunt Gruntie]

You know what'd be cool? When you make a claim, back it up with proof via the original source

[SPECTRE]

No proof to the opposite either. Whenever something new is found they try and integrate into to everything, look at modern plastics. What doesn't contain plastic nowadays?

[Lord Stark]

No proof to the opposite either. Whenever something new is found they try and integrate into to everything, look at modern plastics. What doesn't contain plastic nowadays?

Except for Spartan Palmer blatantly stating only Infinity's engine's are forerunner; the rest of the ship is human and Halsey the one who built the ship flat out confirming it.

[SPECTRE]

Except for Spartan Palmer blatantly stating only Infinity's engine's are forerunner; the rest of the ship is human and Halsey the one who built the ship flat out confirming it.

So minus all the clones of tart cart then?

Plus if you Plus one of these.

into one of these

without one of these

In terms of technology you cannot get one piece to talk to another. Hex cannot talk to binary without an adapter.

This goes for any tech, Ever tried to recharge you phone using rock?

[Aunt Gruntie]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Seriously you guys are arguing about the dumbest thing right now.

You two should get a room

[Zero]

Except Engineers are masters at their practice. Remember the one that modified Master Chief's shields on Ascendant Justice? Nothing in his armor was Forerunner, the engineer just made it better.

[SPECTRE]

Except Engineers are masters at their practice. Remember the one that modified Master Chief's shields on Ascendant Justice? Nothing in his armor was Forerunner, the engineer just made it better.

That wasn't a tevelyan huragok though.

[Cmdr Daefaron]

That wasn't a tevelyan huragok though.

I have never understood that argument. Engineers/huragok are forerunner by design. They were built by the forerunners. The 'offspring' of two engineer contains the knowledge it's 'parents' did (IIRC). Therefore, by some nature, EVERY engineer in existence would have knowledge of forerunner tech. Maybe ranging from "OMG it was on a shield world" to "It knows how to make forerunner washing machines" but they'd all hold some knowledge about forerunner tech.