152 replies to this topic

[Zero]

"My name is Michael James Caboose and I hate kittens babies!"

Fixed that for you.

[D4RKST0RM99]

With regard to the Infinity vs the plot device Carrier, considering we know the infinity can perform precision jumps and should have more than enough room to jump within its shields and blast it to bits, or treat it like the armored cruiser and just plough through it.

[Cmdr Daefaron]

The Infinity is just one ship. It can only be one place at a time. When the dropships first invaded (book) they went to BOTH poles, and attacked the genetors and UNSC HQ at the same time. Yes, it'd change aspects of the battle but it can only be in single place at a time. While it defends the generators, the HQ is lost with a lot of command staff. If It's doing hit and runs, eventually the Covenant will simply track it, and drop 50+ ships all around it. We know it can easily tear into unshielded, worn down light cruisers. Can it do the same for fully functional, shielded, and staffed CCS battlecruisers? If they are out of it's frontal arc, it cannot hurt them with it's main and flank MAC cannons. I doubt it could solo the super-carrier either. If it rammed, it'd impact the shields. coming out of slipspace within it's shields means in that neck area. Point blank firing into the enemy ship will cause damage to the Infinity from debris and explosions. If it comes in a spot to fire it's MACs the supercarrier can just unload everything against the Infinity, and I doubt it'd last super long.

 

But yes, the battle would be drastically changed, in a specific area depending on where the Infinity deploys. Remember, even when the Spartans reached the generators, the Covenant had a cruiser within atmosphere and a major base camp. The Orbital defensive line was breaking slowly at that point in the book.

[m468]

Lets take Infinity against over 300 ships and see how that works out. And if you want to say she shows up after the main fleet action she will still would have been hopelessly out numbered by fully operational ships. 

Here is a quote:

 

""Covenant vessels swarmed through the Epsilon Eridani System in five ship crescent formations. The remaining UNSC ships fled before them... those that could still move."

- Halo: Fall of Reach Eric Nylund

[Fleet Admiral agigabyte]

super-carrier

really, supercarrier?!

[KhevaKins]

Late to the party.

Now for those that are saying a single ship could make no difference in the Halo universe just look at Keyes, he almost always made a difference. Even at Reach he took out the Super-cruiser single handily, buying precious time and ships for the UNSC. That instance didn't change the course of the battle, probably just caused more Covvie casualties.
But then we also have the Keyes loop, outnumbered and Keyes sill won with an epic maneuver.
Also Cole.
Also countless other 'miraculous' feats that changed the course of battles on the ground.

If Infinity were present the Hero Multiplier Effect would have to be taken into consideration, in that Infinity being such an icon it would pull of some amazing maneuver which caused  the UNSC to win in the last moment. It would probably perform the "Inverted Infinity Parable of Deception" to achieve this goal because lets be honest this is Halo and with the way Halo is written the Infinity pretty much can't lose.

really, supercarrier?!

To be fair he isn't the first.

Fixed that for you.

"My Name is Michael J. Caboose. AND. I. HATE. TAXES."

[sloosecannon]

Late to the party.

Now for those that are saying a single ship could make no difference in the Halo universe just look at Keyes, he almost always made a difference. Even at Reach he took out the Super-cruiser single handily, buying precious time and ships for the UNSC. That instance didn't change the course of the battle, probably just caused more Covvie casualties.
But then we also have the Keyes loop, outnumbered and Keyes sill won with an epic maneuver.
Also Cole.
Also countless other 'miraculous' feats that changed the course of battles on the ground.

If Infinity were present the Hero Multiplier Effect would have to be taken into consideration, in that Infinity being such an icon it would pull of some amazing maneuver which caused  the UNSC to win in the last moment. It would probably perform the "Inverted Infinity Parable of Deception" to achieve this goal because lets be honest this is Halo and with the way Halo is written the Infinity pretty much can't lose.

TL;DR plot armor

[Defender0]

lets just send a super star destroyer across the universes and put it at reach, the covies would never know what hit them

[Cmdr Daefaron]

Lets take Infinity against over 300 ships and see how that works out. And if you want to say she shows up after the main fleet action she will still would have been hopelessly out numbered by fully operational ships. 

Here is a quote:

 

""Covenant vessels swarmed through the Epsilon Eridani System in five ship crescent formations. The remaining UNSC ships fled before them... those that could still move."

- Halo: Fall of Reach Eric Nylund

They also attacked the other colonies in the system. IIRC, the fleet at Tribute was entirely destroyed while civilians evacuated. That's why Dutch has such respect for the Navy.

 

really, supercarrier?!

Yes, shoot me. I accept both the book and Halo Reach versions of the battle, maybe even combined. I do however, understand both have flaws. If we are talking about the Infinity taking out high level ships, that's supercarrier for Reach, supercruiser for book.

Late to the party.

Now for those that are saying a single ship could make no difference in the Halo universe just look at Keyes, he almost always made a difference. Even at Reach he took out the Super-cruiser single handily, buying precious time and ships for the UNSC. That instance didn't change the course of the battle, probably just caused more Covvie casualties.
But then we also have the Keyes loop, outnumbered and Keyes sill won with an epic maneuver.
Also Cole.
Also countless other 'miraculous' feats that changed the course of battles on the ground.

If Infinity were present the Hero Multiplier Effect would have to be taken into consideration, in that Infinity being such an icon it would pull of some amazing maneuver which caused  the UNSC to win in the last moment. It would probably perform the "Inverted Infinity Parable of Deception" to achieve this goal because lets be honest this is Halo and with the way Halo is written the Infinity pretty much can't lose.
 

 

It's not "A single ship wouldn't change things." But a "In this case, a single ship would be overwhelmed. It can only be in a single place, and thus can really only help there." Even if it kept the generators going, the Covenant continued to take out SMACs. They had cruisers entering atmosphere.The defenses were breaking up. If it's in space, sure it can deploy it's ground forces but they are still screwed when a battlecruiser comes flying overhead and lobs a plasma torpedo at them. And people seem to think the Infinity guns would effortlessly smash through ships left right and center. If they are out of firing range of it's 4 MACs, it wouldn't do as much damage. We've seen it take on unshielded, not very well maintained ships. In this case, it's facing a massive fleet of ships which are ALL fully staffed, armed, maintained, and shielded. It takes out the supercruiser, they just send an Assault carrier and a bunch of CCS class ships after it and swarm the thing to death.

[Fleet Admiral agigabyte]

lets just send a super star destroyer across the universes and put it at reach, the covies would never know what hit them

You have plasma? We have better plasma!

[Fleet Admiral agigabyte]

They also attacked the other colonies in the system. IIRC, the fleet at Tribute was entirely destroyed while civilians evacuated. That's why Dutch has such respect for the Navy.

Yes, shoot me. I accept both the book and Halo Reach versions of the battle, maybe even combined. I do however, understand both have flaws. If we are talking about the Infinity taking out high level ships, that's supercarrier for Reach, supercruiser for book.

It's not "A single ship wouldn't change things." But a "In this case, a single ship would be overwhelmed. It can only be in a single place, and thus can really only help there." Even if it kept the generators going, the Covenant continued to take out SMACs. They had cruisers entering atmosphere.The defenses were breaking up. If it's in space, sure it can deploy it's ground forces but they are still screwed when a battlecruiser comes flying overhead and lobs a plasma torpedo at them. And people seem to think the Infinity guns would effortlessly smash through ships left right and center. If they are out of firing range of it's 4 MACs, it wouldn't do as much damage. We've seen it take on unshielded, not very well maintained ships. In this case, it's facing a massive fleet of ships which are ALL fully staffed, armed, maintained, and shielded. It takes out the supercruiser, they just send an Assault carrier and a bunch of CCS class ships after it and swarm the thing to death.

Plot armor.

[Cmdr Daefaron]

Plot armor.

I'm approaching this from an angle without plot .

[m468]

Reach fell the moment the Covenant discovered it's location. Infinity's influence on the battle would have made the covenants victory more costly but infinity would not have changed the outcome

[SPECTRE]

There is no confirmation on how strong infinities shields are, they should be the same strength as forerunner shields.
Also anyone ever hear the story of the third rate ironclad taking on hundreds of Chinese war junks in just one battle, the thing was lobbing hundreds of 140lb projectiles and didn't sustain even minor damage. So anyone who says pure numbers overwhelm is wrong.
What if infinity acted like the super cruiser? Hit and run. Plus those macs could gut multiple cov ships with the same round. They had enough force to not only penetrate mantle approaches shield in first salvo, but Also penetrate how many metres of armour? Hundreds at least.

[zaun3694]

from my experience in this mod the biggest ships get decimated by the hordes of little ones. the Infinity is a big target and would just be destroyed after the first couple of plasma salvos directed to it 

[Fleet Admiral agigabyte]

Fixed that for you.

Only babies who endorse the plot device.

[Cmdr Daefaron]

There is no confirmation on how strong infinities shields are, they should be the same strength as forerunner shields.
Also anyone ever hear the story of the third rate ironclad taking on hundreds of Chinese war junks in just one battle, the thing was lobbing hundreds of 140lb projectiles and didn't sustain even minor damage. So anyone who says pure numbers overwhelm is wrong.
What if infinity acted like the super cruiser? Hit and run. Plus those macs could gut multiple cov ships with the same round. They had enough force to not only penetrate mantle approaches shield in first salvo, but Also penetrate how many metres of armour? Hundreds at least.

 

I HIGHLY Doubt the shields are that strong. Especially since you know, only the engines are truly Forerunner.

 

As said, doing hit and runs just minorly helps the fleet. After a bit the Covenant would simply swamp it's flank and rear arcs with battlecruisers, and gut the thing from behind. Again, it may tear unshielded ships apart, but fully functional, shielded battlecruisers instead of unshielded, worn down light cruisers?I'm sorry

 

 if I don't see the Infinity kicking as much ass. Either way, it can only target one or two ships at a time. Meanwhile the generators are being taken out and the fleet is taking losses. Pure numbers DO OVERWHELM. Why do you think they show zombie hordes overrunning police in horror? Because there hits a point where your kill output doesn't even dent the enemy input. Hell, Heart of the Swarm (starcraft) intro also shows this. Destroy 50 zerglings with a siege blast. 200 more swarm out. The Infinity can only help in one area, and if it's in space doing hit and runs, it'll die. It'll put a hell of a hurt out on the Covenant forces, but it WILL get overwhelmed. Again, we are talking near climax of the Covenant war battle. When the Covenant deployed MASSIVE fleets and every ship was at 100%. This is nothing like the fleet the Infinity+frigates fought at Requiem in Spartan Ops.

 

Now... if you were to say "Infinity + escort fleet seen at end of Forward Unto Dawn show." I'd agree the battle would be turned (Considering it's escort was entirely Autumn class cruisers and paris class heavy frigates.) and MAYBE they'd pull a win.

 

 

Only babies who endorse the plot device.

 

Eh, the plot device is fine. Especially if you use the one modification I found of it which added a bunch to the hull. That neck gap space being completely filled and all. Can link you to it if curious.

[D4RKST0RM99]

The Infinity is just one ship. It can only be one place at a time. When the dropships first invaded (book) they went to BOTH poles, and attacked the genetors and UNSC HQ at the same time. Yes, it'd change aspects of the battle but it can only be in single place at a time. While it defends the generators, the HQ is lost with a lot of command staff. If It's doing hit and runs, eventually the Covenant will simply track it, and drop 50+ ships all around it. We know it can easily tear into unshielded, worn down light cruisers. Can it do the same for fully functional, shielded, and staffed CCS battlecruisers? If they are out of it's frontal arc, it cannot hurt them with it's main and flank MAC cannons. I doubt it could solo the super-carrier either. If it rammed, it'd impact the shields. coming out of slipspace within it's shields means in that neck area. Point blank firing into the enemy ship will cause damage to the Infinity from debris and explosions. If it comes in a spot to fire it's MACs the supercarrier can just unload everything against the Infinity, and I doubt it'd last super long.

 

But yes, the battle would be drastically changed, in a specific area depending on where the Infinity deploys. Remember, even when the Spartans reached the generators, the Covenant had a cruiser within atmosphere and a major base camp. The Orbital defensive line was breaking slowly at that point in the book.

To be clear the RCS armored cruiser  (a larger heavier varient of the CCS Class) before it was rammed was fully shielded and as the title says "armored"  also if the infinity can perform precision jumps so how could it ever be a sitting duck and be swarmed by enemy ships, think how long it takes said ships to build up their plasma barrage before firing, the infinity would have made short work of the invading fleet and would never allow itself to be overwhelmed, dont forget that even before exiting slipspace the Infinty knew the location of all the covenant ships in realtime and would plan its attack accordingly.

I'm not so sure Reach would be a lost cause if the Infinity was present, this reasoning can be explained better with this-

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9ykUStlaDu8#t=69

Think of the difference this one spartan makes to the marines and what would have more likely happened if she wasn't there, she was a game changer allowing the rest of the marines more freedom to move as the covenant forces would be preoccupied with the greater threat. Same can be said for the Infinity's presence at Reach offering cover for the defending forces no longer forced into a defensive posture waiting for the enemy to attack, this would force the covies to go on the defensive and yes if they started to take heavy losses at the hands of the Infinity they would have called in reinforcements from other areas, this alone could buy more time for evacuation or rescue for any other human worlds that were threatened nearby.
As for engaging ground forces I think after how it performed on Requiem the Infinity would be more than capable of offering ground support, yes it cant be everywhere at once , thats what its support ships are for also with its presence it may free up some of the defensive fleet for other combat roles including engaging the ground and air forces.

Now I think I rambled on enough.

[SPECTRE]

I HIGHLY Doubt the shields are that strong. Especially since you know, only the engines are truly Forerunner.

 

As said, doing hit and runs just minorly helps the fleet. After a bit the Covenant would simply swamp it's flank and rear arcs with battlecruisers, and gut the thing from behind. Again, it may tear unshielded ships apart, but fully functional, shielded battlecruisers instead of unshielded, worn down light cruisers?I'm sorry

 

 if I don't see the Infinity kicking as much ass. Either way, it can only target one or two ships at a time. Meanwhile the generators are being taken out and the fleet is taking losses. Pure numbers DO OVERWHELM. Why do you think they show zombie hordes overrunning police in horror? Because there hits a point where your kill output doesn't even dent the enemy input. Hell, Heart of the Swarm (starcraft) intro also shows this. Destroy 50 zerglings with a siege blast. 200 more swarm out. The Infinity can only help in one area, and if it's in space doing hit and runs, it'll die. It'll put a hell of a hurt out on the Covenant forces, but it WILL get overwhelmed. Again, we are talking near climax of the Covenant war battle. When the Covenant deployed MASSIVE fleets and every ship was at 100%. This is nothing like the fleet the Infinity+frigates fought at Requiem in Spartan Ops.

 

Now... if you were to say "Infinity + escort fleet seen at end of Forward Unto Dawn show." I'd agree the battle would be turned (Considering it's escort was entirely Autumn class cruisers and paris class heavy frigates.) and MAYBE they'd pull a win.

 

 

 

Eh, the plot device is fine. Especially if you use the one modification I found of it which added a bunch to the hull. That neck gap space being completely filled and all. Can link you to it if curious.

You are comparing using a game. I hate to tell you but the minute you use another game as an example, your point has no relevance.

I will tell you another battle where numbers did not count for sh*t, the battle of imjin river, for example. My grandfathers platoon was based at the top of a ridge. 30 of them took on thousands of koreans and chinese. And by thousands i mean there was at least a thousand bodies. No artillery support, surrounded, and not a single one got within a hundred yards. They didn't even have a single death, albeit only two members of the platoon were not wounded. Similar acts also happened all across that particular war.

The infinities shields were installed by trevelyan huragok, so they should have the same strength as forerunner shields. unless the UNSC didn't want them to be strong. You have to take into account how much energy would it take to ram a ship in half in the first place.

[Cmdr Daefaron]

How about this, Black Hawk Down. Where the mob charged those two snipers in the crash site. Guess what? It hit the point where they ran low on ammo and literally for each one killed another 10 charged forth. YES, there are cases where it doesn't happen but just the same there are cases where IT DOES HAPPEN. Your example, what was the situation? How well equipped were the 30 guys? How good of a defensive location? How was the enemy quiepped, and did they have to approach through a chokepoint? Lots of factors for a ground battle but in space it's all null.

 

People seem to be making the error of comparing war era battlecruisers to post-war era light cruisers. The two types of ships already are different in durability and firepower, but the CCS class ships are fully functional, with shields and all. Those engineers IMPROVED the systems, they did not install Forerunner tech. To quote "Only the engines are Forerunner, the rest is UNSC". The Shields exist yes, and the engineers may have improved them/tweaked them, but they are NOT Forerunner shields.